continued from here

Lindsay

Lindsay we are getting there .. LOL I think it is the choice of words used to describe actions ..my *firm* voice is actually more of a growl than a shout, so quieter than my normal tone. I only use one word for each command ie: Sit. Down. Stand, Stay and so on.I have one word for emergency use, very technical, *Oi* seems to have the desired effect. So I agree there is no need to shout.

Training should be enjoyable and not a chore, that is why when you find a method that you are happy with and works for you, its great, but .. yep there is a but ..I just feel we need to keep an open mind here and realize, like we have said, sometimes we need to adapt. Nothing wrong with rewarding when training, I always reward .. in fact most of my training is reward based. The reward can be anything from food, to a pat on the head, to play. If your not positive when the dog has achieved the goal, ..how is it going to know that it got it right?

In the early stages, I agree you need, if possible, to set the dog up for success, .. you *ask*, .. I *tell*. Take the *sit* command .. I would put myself in the position of being able to enforce this, for example .. if you put one hand under the dogs chin and with the other run it down the length of its back pressing down on its rump, at the same time saying sit..no need to shout, normal voice, in my mind I have shown the dog what I wanted and given the command. If you then keep your one hand under the chin keeping the dogs head tilted towards you, you are keeping its attention and also it is a more difficult position for the dog to get up from, I could keep the dog sat for, in the initial stages 20 sec's or so telling him he was a "good lad"... that would be his reward. I tend to do this when feeding, so the reward is food as well as praise... I think too many commands confuse the dog, many say, Sit down. What do they want a Sit or Down? Confuses me never mind the dog .....lol

We are having a discussion Lindsay, its a ramble, but we are putting our views across hopefully without causing offence.I don't think there is censorship on this board. A forum such as this is free for *EVERYONE* to put across their views on differing training methods. You and I disagree ...we are neither backing down...we are rambling... but not being censored

I think that sometimes, and having read threads such as where the puppy was snapping at the child.....it had been receiving training from a behaviorist/trainer for many weeks .. and was still snapping! I noted it had an ear problem, however, even when that was resolved it was still snapping so whatever the problem was, the type of training given was not working. I know the outcome and a tough decision was made regarding the puppy.
My point, the person who posted on here was obviously concerned that the training was not improving the situation so was asking for further help ....hence the need for trainers/behaviorists to adapt .... and to be able to recognize what a problem is, and not think one method cures all and they can cure all.
I would suggest you keep putting your experiences and methods on the board ..if they help just one person that is great.

Right the point of this ramble .. LOL
*Canine Partners Of Independence* .. No I have not heard of this organization. However *clicker* training. I have not tried this either .. is the idea you click your clicker to gain the dogs attention then having achieved that, reward it? I can see how this would work for heel work .. so now are you going to tell me how it works for other exercises ?

I only ramble Monday to Saturday .. Sundays are reserved for someone special!
Regards
Paul

I hope you two keep rambling It's helping me to realise a lot of misconceptions people might have about the 'kinder' methods of training dogs........

Fran

Hello Fran

I hope also it is helping you to realize the misconceptions people have regarding a different approach.
I will pick you up on the phrase, *kinder methods*, I don't think you are inferring I am unkind??
I do think that dogs that are unsure where they stand in the pecking order can be confused, and therefore, in the long term, that is unkind.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul
No, I do not believe your methods are unkind, perhaps I mean 'gentler'???? I agree with you 100% that dogs, (like children) need to know what their responsibilities are, and to leave that open to misinterpretation is indeed unkind (see - we agree already <G>)

Fran

HI again Paul

* Ramble* again....yes indeedy LOL

i have trained lots of my dogs to sit in pretty much the way you describe, but with the latest I have used a hand signal at the same time. As in, i use a liver piece and say the dogs name excitedly, then place the liver just near the nose.

Then, move it back towards the dog's tail...99% of dogs will sit. I do that loads of times and then I put it on cue, as in then use the word itself, "Sit". Similar to the way i now teach "Down" or "Stand", i lure the dog, then put the behaviour on cue, and at the same time they are learning a hand signal. Obvilusy too one needs to get rid of the grub so I then use a variable reward system and finally get a polished behavour - hopefully!!

NOthign wrong in the way you describe though of course, just 2 different ways

Now re the puppy/child scenario, I have had a re-check of the old posts and have to say, i feel the problem was dealt with in the best way IMHO. Because, I feel, the pup had a bad start in life, (breeder ill - critical stage of 2 weeks plus - no apparent human contact on a regular basis it seems sadly) also, the pup trainer thought the dog was not right at 10 weeks. It was the only male in the llitter and perhaps was affected more. Maybe?

Also, although the bitch was of sweet temperament, the dog was not seen and i feel the problem was certainly genetic if not environmental....a lot more dogs are now being seen for this tyoe of problem. i was desperately hoping for the owners sake it was the abscess that was the problem but...grasping at straws. I think it is pretty impossible to sort it out if it is either of these, although management in an adult household may be possible. It's very sad.... there are some ideas in the behavioural world as to why this is happening but nothing concrete as yet, as far as i am aware.

i don't suppose you will agree Paul <g> but any other approach would i think IMHO have made thigs worse, bordering on dangerous in this particular situation. NO offence

i have helped deal with an aggressive Cocker but the owner was nuts, she was paranoid about the dog touching anything .... rather a differenet case...!!! ( I think I became nuts after it actually!! could explain a lot... :D ).

i do agree everyone involved with dogs needs to sometimes take stock and reassess, but surprisingly many B's I know have often tried all sorts, even E collars, when at their wits end, but now so firmly believe in +'ve methods that that is how they practice. I beleive the B. in the Cocker story was reputalbe, vet recommended and had a good reputation for success rate amongst locals. But I respect your right to an opinon of course NO offence.

Re the Canine Partners for Independence, , they are often at Crufts so do take a look if you are going. The dogs are trained to help wheelchiar bound owners - take washing out of machine, put thier legs back onto the foot support if they slip off, and so many more, many have saved lives.Just wonderful. don.t think they have a website...

clicker stuff, try a look at www.clickertraining.com - it will explina better than me *rambling* LOL!

YOu wanted an example - hmm now the last thing i did was to train my dog to go on her bed on command, and this is done by "shaping" - so, after conditionong inthe first instanc e to the clicker, put dog bed on floor.

Then, click any interest - a nose sniff, a look atthe bed - anything. A dog well versed in this art will instanty starrt to offer various behaviours and so you can click say, one foot on bed, then 2 etc until you have a down on the bed. then you cue it, and so on....it's a funway to train, and the dog can be taught the behavioiur very quickly. i didn't like it at first, but have changed my thoughts on it!!

NOw I'm off for dinner - my typing fingers are knackered!!!

Lindsay