Split from Breed Standard ExtremesI wonder if anyone is aware that the Brit Bulldog is nopw almost extinct as a result of the British breeding standards.
I have another breed to GSD's but I have to import for the simple reason I do sports and it is not possible to get my prefered breed here capable of enjoying working sports simply as a result of bad breeding.
So that raises the question whats different.
In Europe a GSD can not get a breeding licence from its club unless it passes stringent tests,if it des not get a breeding licence the breed clubs will not allow it to be registered as a pedigree, the same applies to my favoured breed and dozens of other breeds.
One part of my breeds test is that if the breeder must give HD scores and if the score only A and B are allowed, below that no licence will be issued.
There are many more equally stringent tests to be carried out including breed working tests before annd if a breeding licence is granted.
No one in Europe whose breeds apply these standards can show what is considered a working breed dog in a championship show unless the dog has passed level one of its working trials, in my case Schutzhund 1.
There is absolutly no incentive whatsoever for anyone to breed dogs unless they are totaly commited to maintaining the health and genetic superiority of their dogs.
In Germany certainly with my favoured breed and I am told with GSD's as well as other breeds DNA testing has been almost a routine with breeders this past 5 years or so.
If I import a dog from Holland, Germany or any other European country the last thing I am worried about is temprament (full temprament and drive testing is carried out on the licence tests) and genetic problems.
Hands up those who think breeding licenceing should be applied here.
Frank
Hi Philipa,
I tried to post this about the Euro standards for breeding licences but it was to big for the system to take it..so heres just a limited short overview.
Well it's really good to hear people interested in the enforcement of breeding licences to European and international standards.
The current situation UK with UK dogs is this, if Crufts Supream Champion is a working dog it is not qualiied to be shown in any international championship show outside UK with the title 'International Champion'
Working/sports/KC
Well dog sports all over the world are a common, internationally recognised sport, except here, we do have dog sports to KC standards but the levels used here and criteria are not high enough to be accepted internationally, a lot of this in the past has been to do with 2 things.
1) Quarantine was a big restriction but now pet passports have lifted that to some extent.
2) There are only 3 breeds in the UK that are capable of fulfilling their original working purpose, they are the Border Collie, Greyhound and Whippet.
What I mean by 'only 3 breeds capable' is this. Of the above 3 breeds the vast majority of the offspring would be able to perform their original working purpose with almost no training except that of channelling their drives and refining the way the do it e.g. getting a BC to do a wider circle than that individual dog might do without the refinement training, in order not to scatter the sheep.
Getting a Greyhound used to the noise and bustle of a track and false hare rather than have it running all over the countryside on its own bat.
All other, once working, breeds are so messed up with the showing for financial gain and haphazard breeding here that only a minority % of a working breed are capable of carrying out their original working purpose. Genetic faults are rampant and there are no restrictions whatsoever in breeding.
The European standards are very different. Firstly the national Kennel Clubs in Europe do NOT run shows for individual breed championships (I have never shown by the way so there’s a lot I do not know about, seeing dogs stuck in benches for a day maybe 2 was enough for me).
The breed clubs are the experts (and in Germany they really are experts) it is the breed clubs who run the international championships and it is the breed clubs who licence judges.
So for example, if the Dutch National KC wants to hold a championship show for beauty (as its called) they have to apply to the breed club to issue a licence for the judge for each individual breed, BUT, whatever dog wins the show it is not taken seriously by anyone the reason being the breed clubs will not licence the national kennel clubs to hold working trials relevant to the working breed and the champion of a national kennel club show in Europe is simply not qualified to be shown in any international show unless it has passed its lowest level of working trial and only the breed club can do that. There are some breeds I understand which no longer work at all but I do not know what they are.
The championships that are recognised are the international championships and no one in most working breeds can enter an adult dog in a championship show unless it has passed its lowest level of working trial.
Having said lowest make no mistake about it these are stringent tests over a 2 day period and if the dog fails he/she can never be entered again and therefor cannot be shown.
This system, combined with the breeding licence tests, leaves not only the dogs with a far healthier gene pool it eliminates almost entirely people who just buy a couple of dogs with ‘Champion’ in the pedigree and breed offspring at every season, in fact it deters exploitation at every turn.
The training standards and knowledge are phenomenal compared to here.
I have Dobermans but of European stock, my current dog was mixed with English and he is not genetically capable of working but he could be shown and bred from if I were a mind to do it, in UK, which I am not.
Working sports depends on breed but the obedience levels are stringent.
Socially in Germany especially, they have large well-equipped stadiums for dog sports in almost all the small villages.
These are not just simple little fields with a changing hut, even in small places they are well equipped, cater for the public with seating bars etc, very much like 2nd division football clubs here (having said that I have never been to a football match).
On Sundays when the national or even local elimination rounds are on the local population just wanders down to the local ‘Shutzhund Club’ to watch, not to dissimilar, except for the excellent facilities of the way some English country villages have their summer cricket matches.
Below is the breeding licence test procedure carried out by the German Dobermann club the ZTP. If anyone finds this tedious reading then imagine how tedious and almost impossible it is there to breed willy nilly and for money only,in Europe, dog GENUINLY, comes first.
FIRST IS the herditory tests but for USA as I couldnt find them for Germany, below.
DOBERMANN ZTP
OFA ---- Hips
CERF ---- Eyes
T3-T4 ---- Thyroid
VWD DNA ---- Blood clotting disorder
Breed-Suitability-Test of the Dobermann Verein (German Dobermann Club) (DV) (German Dobermann Club)
This is a translation and is not perfect.
The meaning and purpose of the ZTP is to ascertain those Dobermanns which are - according to the breeding goal (breed standard) - suitable for breeding, and to eliminate unsuitable dogs from the breeding program. ZTP's can only be judged by breed judges. The judge and the helper shall be named by the test giving club's official committee. ZTP's can only be held, if authorization from DV has been given and the event has been published and deadlines have been adhered to. Additionally, ZTP's should only be held if there are at least 10 dogs expected to participate. The maximum number of dogs to be judged in any one day shall be 20. ZTP test-date applications to DV must include the name and address of the test giving club, as well as the name of the ZTP test chairperson, the name of the judge, and the deadline for entries. The exact location and start time of the ZTP test shall also be included. ZTP's are independent events. They cannot be held in conjunction with conformation shows or Schutzhund trials. The ZTP can only be carried out, if on the day of the test, the judge is presented with at least 8 dogs, and if the test location is deemed suitable for the test. The ZTP judge shall be responsible for determining the suitability of the test location. All Dobermanns which have been bred according to the breeding requirements of the DV and have been properly x-rayed for hip-displaysia, can participate in the ZTP. The results of the x-rays have to be submitted on the day of the test. Furthermore there has to be a successful test of obedience (BH). Foreign bred Dobermanns, whose owners have their permanent residence in Germany, have to have proper transfer papers. Foreign bred Dobermanns can participate in any ZTP, as long as all DV requirements have been met. The minimum age for dogs participating in a ZTP is 14 months. Dogs which have been "Held-Back" (did not pass) at an earlier ZTP, can only be re-entered once their waiting period has expired. Dogs which do not pass the ZTP the second time they are judged, cannot be entered again. The test chairperson checks the required documents and prepares the test papers. S/He is also responsible for the uninterrupted completion of the entire test, as well as the availability of all equipment necessary for the test. A suitable Schutzhund helper has to be available.!! There has to be an insurance for this test. All dogs in the testing location have to be kept so as not to disturb the testing in any way. Prong collars are not permitted on dogs, during any part of the test.
TEST PROCEDURE
1. Examination for the Conformation Ratings
2. Temperament Testing
Reasons for elimination of a dog are further discussed later in this writing. Aggressive, Shy or fearful dogs shall be excluded from breeding.
3. Determination and Announcement of ZTP Ratings
If the ZTP is held the day before a conformation show with the same judge, and the same dog is entered in both ZTP and conformation show, then the ZTP rating will be announced the day of the conformation show. Dogs will be judged first, followed by bitches. The observations of the judge shall be entered in the ZTP papers and signed by the test chairperson. The decisions of the judge and his conformation and temperament ratings are indisputable. Objections regarding formal errors must be brought to the test chairperson's attention on the day of the test. If a resolution cannot be achieved, the matter is to be presented to the officers of the DV for a decision. The ZTP rating is applicable for the duration of the dog's breeding age, unless revoked by a DV committee, because of newly discovered or earlier concealed genetic faults. This revocation of a ZTP rating must be made in writing to the owner via a registered letter. No dogs owned by the judge or his immediate family can participate in a test judged by him. After conclusion of the test, it's results are to be given to each dog's owner, co-owner or handler. A duplicate has to be sent to DV within 3 days following the test. Another duplicate shall be given or sent to the officiating judge. All financial matters shall be settled immediately.
JUDGING RULES AND PERFORMANCE REGULATIONS
Prior to the start of the ZTP, the judge briefly explains to all competitors the meaning and purpose of the test, and the exercises involved. At the start of testing the competitor and his dog report to the judge. The test chairperson checks the authenticity of the dog's pedigree with the use of the dog's tattoo. In a conversation with the handler the judge informs himself about the training, care and possible changes in ownership of the dog presented to him. The conformation evaluation is done according to the guidelines set forth by the governing club, its rules and regulations and breed standard. Special attention should be paid to faults which would affect working ability, such as a weak muzzle, long weak back, faults of front and rear legs as well as bad movement. !! Deviation in body dimensions by more than 2 cm have to be judged by reduction of conformation ratings. Greater deviations are leading to exclusion of breeding. Dogs with faults of their dentition - such as less than 42 teeth, deviations in the tooth pattern, or overshot/undershot bites, are to be deemed unsuitable for breeding purposes. The behavior of the dog during the examination of the mouth is to be specially noted, as it may be serve as an indication for certain temperament problems.
Minimum Rating Required for Males: Very Good
Minimum Rating Required for Females: Good
After the conformation evaluation the judge will instruct the handler to lead his dog in different directions over the testing area for a duration of about 300 paces, with the dog's leash being held loosely. During this walk, the dog/handler team has to encounter 4 to 6 persons who are either moving or stationary. After this, those 4 to 6 persons will form a group. The group formation should not be in any particular stiff and rigid pattern. Here the judge is encouraged to vary the proceedings, in as much as he orders the movement of the group towards the handler with his dog, or the movement of the handler/dog team in the group. During the stop in the group, it is important to create situations which are as natural as possible, such as they occur in day to day life (i.e. meeting a stranger by shaking his hand, dropping of items, opening of an umbrella, etc.). During above said exercise it is particularly important not to show any threat towards the dog. It shall strictly be used to evaluate the dog's self-confidence, fearlessness, temperament, obedience and threshold of stimulation.After this the judge orders the handler and his dog to the previously determined tie out location, where the handler ties up the dog without the use of obedience commands such as "Down" or "Platz", and goes out of sight of his dog. During the time the dog and handler are walking to the tie out location, two gunshots shall be discharged from a distance of about 15 paces, using 6mm ammunition.Gun-shy dogs are unsuitable for breeding; gun-sensitivity is to be strictly distinguished from gun-shyness.
The tie-out location is to be freely accessible from all sides (i.e. away from walls, fences, etc.).
!! The dog has to be left alone for about 5 min. The judge shall approach the dog from a distance of about 5 to 8 steps, and either pass him or walk around him at a distance of approximately 2 to 3 steps, without threatening him in any way.
!! He stops in front or beside the dog, drops an exercise book or something similar. The behavior of the dog in the absence of it's handler is to be specially observed. After this, the handler shall return to his dog and take him out of the testing area. At the direction of the judge the helper shall proceed to the hiding place.
Part 1.
The judge will direct the handler to walk his dog into a specific direction. The dog shall be on leash. At the direction of the judge, the helper will now come out of the hiding place and attack the handler and dog from the front. The dog should show his protective instincts and protect his handler. The helper starts threatening the dog only after he has engaged in the fight. During the fight the dog will be threatened verbally and physically, but does not receive any stick-hits. Upon order from the judge, the helper stops the attack.
Part 2.
The helper now turns away, and starts running a distance of about 50 paces. The handler holds the dog by his collar only, first shouting at the helper to stop, then sending the dog. The helper flees first, but at the direction of the judge turns and attacks the dog, when he has gotten as close as approximately 8 to 10 steps. The helper tries to threaten the dog again, however even here there shall be no stick-hits used.
The handler may, at his discretion encourage the dog verbally. Upon order from the judge, the helper shall stop the attack. The handler shall return to the dog, place him back on leash, and report back to the judge.
Notes for Part 1:
It is very important that the helper wears a protective suit consisting of pants and jacket.
By Brainless (Moderator)
![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 18.03.02 11:54 GMT
The biggest problem faced by owners of my breed is their hunting instinct. I spend most of mytime trying to quell it, which is sad, but otherwisew they could not have the free running that they and I enjoy, but those in the countryside have to proof them with stock, as a Cow would I imagine seem like and Elk to a dog, and I don't think the farmer would tolerate them baying their prize bull or heifer!
As most of our stock here are not far removed from working parents of their Imported pearents and Grandparents, I imagine most of our breed could still track Elk and have the guts to hold them at Bay. In Scandinavia an elkhound cannot become a Beuty champion (or be awarded the certificate) until it has the hunting grades, but also a dog cannot become a hunting champion, unless it meets the conformation standard. this prevents the working and show split, but also practically speaking limits the breed as a show dog, being kept primarily as hunting dogs, with most hunters having limited interest in conformation showing, though there are exceptions.
In the USA the breed has become perhaps more of a show dog than a working type, but there are dedicated breeders who want their dogs to adhere to a working build, and mental ability, and many of them are used for various types of hunting, or as gundogs! Many others enjoy working their dogs in Agility and Obedience Trials, though all of these are not what the breed was developed for, big game hunting.
I think the temeperament tests, and health testing are a good idea, as far as the working, in many instances the jobs are no longer available or legal for that matter.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
I think this is getting to be a very informative thread, I'm glad brainless told us that Elkhounds have to undergo the Schutzhund equivilent in what about any other working breeds out there????
I have met someone here in London with an imported Borzoi, I am not 100% sure where he came from but if I rmeber correctly I think he said it was Germany and that to had to chase some kind of deer or something and acheive certain levels before it could be shown for beauty, thats the same as Dobermanns, GSD's, Rottweilers, Malinoise in Europe.
Yes any dog can enter Schutzhund regardless of breed, I was privaledged to meet Herr Manfred Lerner in about 1984 when I was visiting Germany to see what I could learn of their Dobes, their training levels and expertise.
Herr Lerner actualy got a bitch Staff Bull Terrier to Schutzhund 1, so how can the justify the lack of standard obedience here after that.
However the sheer number of GSD and GSD kennels make them the most prolific breed in Sch, Dobes have a much smaller, in fact tiny by comparison gene pool and consequent dogs to choose from.
The working lines are not the easiest going breed to get the neccesary obedience levels easily and anyone really has to be commited to take them on.
Yes certainly there is some personal preference involved in the European show ring, but it really is not very significant, they use the tape mesure and the German attitude generaly is that all the dogs in the ring are not good enough to be Champ and by that thinking they really do try to eliminate them all.
A lot of ths is because the Germans like to win in the internationals, as a nation and can't really let to much personal preference come in on a dog whose conformations are poor by comparison.
With Dobermanns the highest award is Angekeort, that has to be the vry best of both sides, it is open internationaly and I think so far there are only about 40 dogs in total ever acheived Angekeort 2 (for life No1 is for one year only) and of those only a few were from outside Germany and non from outside Europe.
I suspect that other Europeandogs might have an equivilent and I would like to hear it...
I would like to see a lot of support grow for the introduction of a breeding licence system here.
Frank, what are working sports?
I quite like the idea of breeding licences, though I wonder if some aspects could be open to unfairness. Am I right to think that a breeding licence is not issued to a German GSD unless it meets a certain standard in conformation, and if so doen't that leave a door open for bad judging and personal bias? Also doesn't the system only apply to schutzhund capable breeds? I can only imagine the public outcry if schutzhund became common in the UK! I'm at a loss as to how a similar system might be applied to the toy group or some of the utility group for instance. 
