Perhaps if the fox weren't such a beautiful looking creature then there wouldn't be quite so many people up in arms about it all. Let's face it when terrier's go ratting no one says a dicky bird because people think YUK rats, they're dirty and carry disease. I know someone who was helping move a shed from an allotment, he had his 2 border terriers with him and unbeknown to them when they lifted the shed dozens of rats went scattering about. After a couple of minutes every single one of the rats was killed but it wasn't instant, the terriers chased them, okay it was probably quicker than the fox chase but still a chase and kill all the same. No one thought it cruel cos wild rats are minging right ??!!??

Trouble is with the potental mass cull of the hounds, a lot of people probably still think "no that will never happen, there's no way huntsmen will kill all their dogs just because they can't hunt".

The fox is certainly a lovely looking animal, but there is no doubt that it is a pest. And what about the foxhounds? They are not exactly ugly are they? I agree with Leigh, that there will inevitably be a mass cull and yet all the so-called dog lovers don't seem to care. Could it be that the anti-hunt lobby has managed to persuade the nation that the poor fox is an innocent peace loving creature, whereas the foxhound is a vicious nasty dog we'd be better off without?
I don't know, strange times we live in!

Sharon

The English Foxhound has been bred in this country for hundreds of years. It is very possible that we are about to witness its demise and yet people just don't seem to care that we are about to lose part of our heritage in the form of this Breed. Other cultures are fighting hell for leather to maintain links with their past. The English are hell bent on doing away with anything that is English! Not scaremongering..a sad FACT

Couldn't agree more Leigh!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Leigh, I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I read somewhere that the English Foxhound has fewer hereditary diseases than almost any other breed. If this is so, what a credit to the dedicated huntsmen that have bred them all these years - and what a tragedy.

Leigh
so what do you suggest? keep fox hunting going despite massive opposition so these dogs can live for a few more years, they will all be shot in the end but the hunt keep very quiet about that don't they.Many more would be bred to met the same end.
This ban has been a long time coming and if they had so much dread of culling their hounds then the numbers could have been reducing for years by natural decline and no breeding.
Ted

Ted they arent talking about extending the lives of the hounds they're talking about mass EXTINCTION. No fox hunting no foxhounds and other associated breeds. The fox isnt being hunted to extinction but if you ban hunting with dogs then foxhounds et al will be. I'm sorry but I'd rather a few foxes die than lose an entire breed (or breeds) of dog.

I'm not convinced that there IS massive opposition. A recent survey showed that the majority of people are either undecided about hunting or don't care one way or the other - after all, it doesn't feature in most people's lives. They only know what is fed to them by the (mostly left-wing) media, which is: a bunch of 'toffs' on horseback chasing a sweet defenseless little animal into a corner where it will be ripped to shreds by the canines from Hell. . What we HAVE got, are some loudmouthed political pressure groups, determined to get their way, coupled with a government that seemingly wants to destroy virtually everything that could be perceived as being 'old (privileged) Britain'.
Another survey last week, said that it was now more acceptable to be gay than middle class - They didn't mention the 'upper' class, presumably, in the hope that they have all fallen off their horses and broken their silly little necks.
I know I'm going off the topic a little here but I am seriously worried about what is happening in this country. We derride 'old' Britain and almost hero worship the new. Hence, a man who kicks a ball around a football pitch is capable of earning more money than most of us could dare dream about. We live in a country obsessed by the new, the trivial and where the ability to make money is prized above all else. Old values? forget them - go and graffitti a wall.
Before anyone says anything:
I'm British (and proud of it)
I'm middle class (and proud of it)
My brother is gay - aha! (and proud of it,although he's also middle class, so where does that put him?)
I'm not 100 years old, I'm really not - just someone who doesn't quite understand what's going on!
Leigh, I know you will probably strike this off, but I'm so angry about what is happening to the country that I love, that I just had to let off some steam! Sorry!!!!!!!!!

Sharon

I think you will find that if you read my post, I said exactly what you said but in less words The 'vocal minority' have control and apathy rules the day.

SharonW,

I'm not convinced that there is massive opposition either. I have always voted labour but am now ashamed of the blatent 'sucking up' which the current leadership seems to go in for. 'If its going to be loudly agreed with, then do it' seems to be the watchword.

If we're not careful we'll finish up with a nation of clones, all doing the same bland things because everything we currently class as a minority sport/passtime will have been wiped out by someone who is offended by it - and that seems to have been reason enough in this case.

And in case anyone is interested, I am in my 30's, live in a tiny village in Belvoir country and am by no means convinced either way on the fox hunting debate as I think its far to complex a social issue to be decided under the current emotionally over heated circumstances. Why is it being banded? Cruelty? What about abatoirs?

Linda

Sorry- double post

I still think the so called dog lovers are in a state of denial and think huntsmen will never kill their dogs, until of course it happens and as Leigh says by then it's too late

That's what's terrible about this whole hunting with dog's m'larky. Not EVERYONE is aware of ALL the FACTS !! All they see is a beautiful creature (the fox) who is indeed a pest being controlled in a way they don't like but instead of looking at the WHOLE picture some people seem to have blinkers on. Unfortunately I think a lot of people will learn the real facts on this subject at the foxhounds expense, amongst others

NOTE - the term "some people" is a generalisation and most certainly not directed at anyone on this board

I read that in Scotland the Hunt are trying a loophole in the law which say you can still hunt as long as you try a shoot the fox before the dogs get it. That definition is open to debate but the huntsmen are prepared to try and if necessary get a test case in court to save their dogs. It's a case of damned if they do and damned by the public if they don't when the pictures of the dead dogs get into the press, which they surely. Most hunts can trace back the pedigrees of their dogs to the original breeding stock, going back hundreds of years and yet a nation of do gooders want to destroy this. Ingrid

I have no strong feeling one way or the other on hunting, preferring to leave the decisions to those involved, but surely bulldogs were bred for bull and bear baiting, and when the "sport" was no longer considered acceptable and was banned, bulldog enthusiasts still kept the breed going. www.americanbulldog.org/history.htm

Many other hounds are not the easiest to keep and exercise, as I know from previously owning and loving an Afghan, but those prepared are willing to do it.
Even if there were less numerically, I can't see why the breed should die out. Please help me understand what you are thinking.

Did anyone see the bit on the news with the RSPCA standing over a dead deer, and a fox hound came along sniffed and went on its way. The huntsman said it wouldn't have looked like it did if hounds had got it! also that he new where his hounds were. They then showed a stray hound waiting with the fim crew for to be collected, very friendly dog too! Handsome dogs, not as heavy as the ones I have seen in the show ring. Am I right in thinking that foxhounds are a type rather than a distinct breed, as the different packs seem to be quite different to look at?

Perhaps Leigh, we should have a vote by contributers on this board to see what proportion of posters are in favour of finishing hunting with hounds, just out of interest, rather than to have a go at anyone. I also dispute that the majority of the population want it banned, its the government that want it banned, in my mind. My husband, who has voted labour all his life- though has never ridden-let alone to hounds, thinks it is just another way that this goverment is reducing personal freedom. He says he will never vote Labour again, which believe me, is a BIG deal for him.

seems this thread has worn out. pro hunt lot just keep repeating yourselves and nobody is answering my points. Good point re. bull dogs though.
Ted

I must have missed your "point" ted..but will be more than happy to answer it if you care to repeat it.

Being neither pro nor anti I feel the discussion centred around foxhunting widely misses the mark.
One can argue for both camps, and that is what many folk are _ENCAMPED_ in their own blinkered world. These are the ones whose opinions are most voiciferously (?sp) heard. The man-on-the-clapham-omnibus has no experience of the realities of th countryside. It is a nice place to visit on a Sunday, or for a week on holiday, and then return to the smoke. WHat they do see and hear is what the media tells them and that is what is so wrong about this entire situation. There is little discussion on the benefits and debits of hunting with dogs. There is only the fox-hunting situation taking all the press space. Where are the arguments for terrier work or Ratting? or Lamping? Culling of deer? etc etc.
IMHO the pros and cons of culling the working Foxhounds is going nowhere as this would be a one-off answer, either way, with a finite end.
IF foxhunting with hounds ceases there will be folk unable to pursue their previous occupations.
Local to me was a colliery which kept the majority of the local village employed in one form or another. Maggie T. killed the colliery, and seriously damaged the village. Only now is it slowly returning to life mainly with commuters, the ex-miners now working away from the village or retired or dead! The local shops mainly closed down and now reopening to serve a different clientelle with different needs. The local market has gone. The allotments no longer used the life in the pubs has changed to eateries so many changes.

Hi SharonW
You keep posting what I am thinking on this
issue. I have never thought there was a
massive majority to ban fox hunting
(or hunting with dogs as it has now turned
out to be). My own opinion is and I hope I'm
allowed to say this without getting excluded
from the board is that this bill has come up
again because the Government has got some
debts to pay if it wants to keep the support
of its backbenchers and they are the small
minority that are dictating what is going to
happen to hunting horses and dogs.
The trouble is try to voice your opinion in
some circles and the 'in your face crowd' just
shout you down and you can get nowhere.
I have no idea where this will all end because
to me it is the thin edge of the wedge and
changes are being made out of spite.
Sorry but today I had an earbashing because
I said I would prefer to stand and watch the
Queen Mothers courtege go by than any
politician I can think of.
Perhaps I am getting old .
I do not like the new order.
Jaq
Won't include the Elf in this post -
she might get shot.

Had a phone call this afternoon from a friend to tell
me I had posted this twice. I was interfered with by
that lparkins again last night and cut of from the
board then my computer crashed and I had to wait
for someone to put it all together again for me this
morning.
Sorry for double posting but nothing showed up on
my computer today so I had another go.
Jaq

Exactly as I've said before. Humans adapt, they have to, for nothing stays the same for ever. The pit communities were decimated, and so were the ship builders and the steel workers. No one wants changes thrust upon them, over which it seems they have little control but the passage of time changes ways of life. It always has done.

that doesn't make it right though!!!

Ted
we jump no fences in our country, yet we still offer a free fencing/gate service to the landowners we hunt over, I have never seen a fence knocked down by our hunt, although I guess it happens where there is a lot more timber & bigger fields out, like in the shires.
As for your local hunt not respecting your wishes, well thats just bad practise & all you need to do is contact either ISAH or the MFHA and the problem will be dealt with. Same goes for your private farm drive, it sounds quite unbelievable to me as I cannot imagine our lot behaving like that & certainly NONE of our riders would go on forbidden land, albeit occassionally the hounds will cross it & then my other half spends the evening visiting & apologising. Luckily we have virtually no land out of bounds in our country, as everyone welcomes us.
Your comment about "collecting your wages on a Friday" is a little over my head I'm afraid! I don't recall making any such comment so don't know what you mean!

Heres a question from someone on the fence as it were. I have no axe to grind for either side in this debate but I would like to know; as it seems the death penalty is looming over the heads of the poor fox hounds, are they still being bred for the hunt at the moment, adding to the problem of unwanted hounds if this does go ahead or has a halt been called. Just curious.

I must admit I was wondering that too. Gina

I wouldn't think it has had any effect yet, it's not been a month since the vote and the fight isn't over yet. Quite apart from which, if they do decide to convert to drag hunting they need a fresh lot of dogs to do this with.
Just another point has anyone else seen the item about the New Forest Draghounds, launched 3 years ago as an experiment in order to get a licence to hunt over the New Forest, it has now been abandoned because the dogs kept going off after deer scent or fed by spectators. The licence application has now been withdrawn by the hunt because the hounds nearly killed a deer. Apparently this hunt was used in the debate as the best example of it's kind in Britain.

Proof that you can't just 'switch off' hundreds of years worth of breeding for a specific purpose. It never ceased to amaze me the amount of GSP's that came into rescue because people had purchased them "purely as pets" and then got upset when the dogs did an HPR on their cats or their chickens,rabbits or any other 'game substitute'. They are bred to do a job of work and being instinctive, you can't just turn it off when it doesn't suit you! It can't just be bred out over night either.

Its very hard to stop hounds rioting on deer (ref. New Forest drag hounds post). I have seen hounds hunting a fox, then deer cross the line & they change onto it. Likewise, I have been hunting clean boot with my own hounds, (& those of other owners,) and seen them change from human to deer & start speaking to the line with great enthusiasm which they did not do on clean boot.....rather embarrassing!!!! It takes a greatly skilled huntsman, who can keep his hounds free from riot on deer, luckily there are many who have just such a rapport with their hounds, so deer riot is rare in their country. Other hunts are not so lucky.
For further information, the new forest drag hounds were set up & funded by the rspca, & they tried to do it to prove that drag hunting could be a viable alternative "sport" (although obviously it would serve no other purpose!) However, the hounds kept rioting on deer & foxes ('cos thats what they are bred to hunt!) and in the end the huntsman & masters decided it was too much agro to keep the pack going.As I have said all along, you cannot expect foxhounds to miraculously turn into drag hounds........& why the heck should they?

Allie
we bred 2 litters last year. (6 pups).They are nearly 10 months old now & will be entered next season. This was done because we do not believe for one minute, that there will be a ban.

A thought has occurred to me, under the present proposed English Law and under Scottish Law, if you are suspected of hunting the Police can seize and keep the dogs which must be returned following the conclusion of proceedings.
So if as has been said the Scottish Hunts propose to use a loophole to get round it, wonder what the local police will do with a pack of hounds during the lengthy case that will follow. That should make life very interesting for any of the rescue homes or kennels that have to look after them for this time.
Ingrid

Yes, that will be fun Ingrid The 'seize and keep' bit is more of a problem for those who are involved in non-pack hunting. Look too at some of the provisions in the Scottish legislation -

6 Disqualification orders
(1) The court convicting a person of an offence under section 1 may, in addition to dealing
with the offender in any other way, make either or both of the following orders
(“disqualification orders”)—
(a) an order for the care or disposal of a dog which was in the offender’s custody
when the offence was committed or which has been in the offender’s custody at
any time since then;.Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Bill 5
(b) an order disqualifying the offender, for such period as it thinks fit, from having
custody of any dog.

The 'or disposal' bit sounds, to say the least, ominous. And if I am convicted for an offence committed with one of the young dogs, and am banned from keeping any dog, what happens to my geriatrics? If the law allows me to rehome, I will be able to find good homes for the youngsters, but I can't see many people queuing up for the oldies.

I don't like the look of Section 5.5 either -

5 Proceedings and penalties
(5) If an offence committed by a partnership is proved to have been committed with the
consent or connivance of, or as a result of neglect by, a partner, the partner as well as the
partnership is guilty of the offence.

My dogs are all registered in joint names, and my affix is held jointly with my husband. If I get myself arrested, does Ian also risk ending up in jail because he is 'a partner', and 'connived' in my law breaking or 'neglected' to stop me?

Thanks for bringing this out again Sharon.
This is one of the points I have been trying to get across. It applies to any dog chasing, not catching and killing!!!, any wild mammal other than those on the exempted list. It could apply to the geriatric poodle with an OAP owner chasing a squirrel in the local park.
The bill is an anti-dog bill and not anti-fox-hunting.