Ok the topic GSD is locked now so I have to reply in a new thread. First off it wasnt Terry Hornsby who trained Max it was Adrian, his son. Terry has retired from dog training and has handed it over to his son. Adrian did say to keep up his training which we have been doing with daily sits and downs. Max wasn't taught much more than this - it was a basic obediance course - not advanced. The only thing that we haven't kept up is socialization. Maybe we should get another dog to keep Max company :rolleyes:

Adrian also said that he was suprised that Max was showing 'wild dog' tendancies and was amazed the despite the thousands of years of domestication how 'near the surface' his instincts were.

Dogs from Neptune was recommended to me by someone on this board and has a section called Suburban Dog Syndrome. In short it says dogs in the suburbs don't get the socialistion they need. 'Spooky' dogs possibly like Max need to be 'Maxed' out (no pun intended). This is something we need to look at but is a bit of a catch 22 situation - Max isn't sociable and no one wants to know because he isn't sociable - so how we get him enough pleasant experiences with dogs and strangers is a problem.

Also we weren't given the option of a home visit by the behaviourist and she suggested a muzzle for Max which we have done the conditioning for. We are also considering purchasing a Police Bite Suit for visitors :rolleyes:

bet you wont have many queing up to try that on :D

hi---im so pleased i managed to get dr malcom willis to have a word with you about max--hes a very clever man and certainly knows a lot about gsd"s :D

Hi dizzy - I want to thank you very much for putting me in touch with Dr Willis - he had a lot of useful advice and I found that he had a good idea about Max and has put my mind at rest somewhat! I think that as we discussed him we agreed that Max was possible slighty nervous with confident traits. Wish I'd knew about his advice on puppies before we had selected Max at the litter stage - as the puppies except Max and the female all showed avoidance not really investigating us at all - so Max may have come from a nervous litter. While he may not be as nervous as some of the other puppies he still may have a nervous streak - hopefully the Cytacon (suggested by Mari) will calm his nerves - if not then we'll try St Johns Wart after a few months - then we can really begin working him.

Dr Willis also thought that Max is at a particularly delicate and pushy age where he will be testing us to see what he can get away with. He felt that discipline and correction were the best methods to use with Max - he basically hasn't got to be allowed to get away with anything. This is the advice that I have received from other GSD people and we have been doing this over the last week or so with good results. If we can sort his nerves problem out this may make him a little more reliable - like a good nerved GSD should be - so fingers crossed.

Thanks again dizzy for your help :D

its nice to have an expert on the breeds veiw of things-said calmly and politley, isnt it,??? by the way its st johns wort-keep the {wart} out of it,--dont you think you've got enough problems already :D

Max's Behaviourist has replied - just for info and comment

Sorry for the delay but I have been away - working.

Below I have outlined answers to your points, I hope they help?

1. (Mouthing)
When ever Max mouths no matter how gentle say ouch loudly. It will also
help in the interim period if you attach a house line to his solid
collar and use this to remove him from unwanted situations rather than
using his collar.

2. (Max barking at the window and biting my dad)
Again the use of an indoor line would have prevented him re directing
aggression onto your father.

3. (Bed guarding and bone guarding)
I do not believe in giving dog's fresh bones as they are guaranteed to
induce sever aggression. Therefore I suggest you no longer offer these
to Max. Also either provide lots of beds OR remove the one's he
presently has. Dog's are less likely to guard resources that are
plentiful. If this is not possible always call him to you rather than
approaching him in his bed. If he ignores you leave him alone and when
he comes to you later for attention ignore him.

4. (Spookyness, dog to dog and neighbour aggression)
Go back to basics and use a muzzle for introductions. This ensures
safety comes first.

5. (Challenging and irritability)
He has learnt to gain attention on his terms. Therefore ensure that he
only gets attention when you initiate it. Re read the handout Learn to
Earn and put all the points into practice. This will have to be adhered
to for the rest of his life. If things have relaxed and he has tried to
manipulate the situation you will always have to be aware of the
potential.

6. (Car stress and aggression when first getting in)
His behaviour in the car sounds more like predatory behaviour - breed
instincts not fear! There may also be some territorial behaviour
involved. This would correlate with his behaviour at home towards people
passing the house.

7. (Reaction sometimes to noises)
This appears to be attention seeking behaviour. I would suggest you
desensitise him to noises.

Generally
Try not to read too much into his behaviour. Take a step back and be
aware of his attention seeking and address this.

Let me know how things are progressing in about 2 weeks

We have booked in to see Celia Bourne - John Rogersons associate :rolleyes: We're also going to view a GSD Training Club in our area tonight :D

Well done Banger- hang on in there I've had a quick peek at your site- he's worth it! (I adore GSD's though so I may be slightly biased;) ) Hope you have some luck with the Training tonight:)

id imagine this is your way forward, who runs the gsd club-is it just for gsd, -if so they should be able to help!!!let me know how it went

Well yeah he's a character and a handsome boy. We didn't take Max to the club because we would have one eye on Max and one eye on what was happening lol. Yes its the only GSD club in the area and the trainers seem nice, but I need to try and get Max used to some steady dogs and see what Celia says on the 12th so fingers crossed :D

One eye on Max and one on what was happening?

It seems to me as though you need eyes in the back of your head:D Your work does seem pretty much cut out with him!

I see your behaviourist wrote:
"I do not believe in giving dog's fresh bones as they are guaranteed to
induce sever aggression"

Codswallop!!!!!!!!

Either that or this phrase needs a lot more detail given.

Most dogs may guard their bones from other dogs but they should all give them up to their owners when requested AND without aggression.

My dogs all get fresh bones in the shape of raw chicken carcass' every day and it has not made any of them aggressive.

Good luck with Max's training

Christine

A lot depends on the home dynamics. My lot get Marrow bones regualrly from the butcher, which they all chomp on together. I always ensure there is a spare, so there is no need for anyone to hog, and anyone who tries to hoard gets told off.

a bitch I bred who lives with a friend in a large mulidog household, cannot be trusted with bones at home (she will guard them, and fight anyone that tries to take them from her) but in my home when she stays she is perfectly happy to chew her bone with the others, I can give her chews as they all lie together at swhows etc, but she knows none of the others will take hers!!!

All the dogs give up anything to all family members, and any human basically, as that is what they have been taught from babies, where I will deliberately set up a likely guarding situation over something high value like a fresh bone, pigs ear etc.

Hi Christine,
Bones in your dogs might not spark aggression and everyone remains happy. Each household and experience is different. I choose not to distribute them with my dogs for various reasons. I know others who are in the same boat as you are -- no trouble on the horizon. That's great :D

Unfortunately, Max's primary difficulty is handling aggression. Bones might trigger conflicts that for the moment, Banger & family can do without. Later on in his life, he can have the extra goodies. Remember, it's the behaviorist's "belief"... she/he is not stating it as fact. More as a preference and advisement :D

--- Just my humble opinion, of course, no criticism, just observation :D

toodles

Hi Toodles

It was the phrase that implied "guaranteed to induce severe aggression in dogs" that I think is wrong - some dogs, maybe but not all dogs as was implied. Reading this could put a lot of people off giving their dogs fresh bones in the mistaken believe that it will automatically make them aggressive. In Max's case because of his bone guarding this may be so but the impression given was it has this effect on all dogs.

I no longer give my lot marrow bones becuase I have had a bitch block up and excoriate her intestines and nearly lost her with one - this does not mean that it will have this effect on all dogs though. They all get raw on a daily basis (fed separately so I know who has had what) and I have noticed no increase in problems nor has anyone else I know who feeds this way (this subject came up on one of the lists recently as well).

Christine

Christine,

excoriate????????

Fiona

I'm taking it to mean Plugged up & tear up

Hi Christine,
Ah, I see what you mean about her comments now. I looked at the statement in the sole context of Max's individual situation and not how the average layperson would view it :D But it can be tiresome at times to always think of the huge picture of public access

That's too bad about what happened to your bitch. You're right, it applies to the single individual situation. I used to give mine bones too. I just got tired of the mess and then when they lost interest, my foot would always painfully relocate the item :D My terrier is also a "gulper," if you get my drift. Just easier to cease the distribution permanently :P They like pigears so much better anyway. Geesh and dogs have tastebuds? :rolleyes:

toodles

Sara, be very careful of pigs ears. When softened by saliva they revert to being very pliable. Dogs have been known to get them wedged in the roof of their mouths and backs of their throats. Two of my dogs nearly choked to death when pigs ears got wedged

Hi Leigh,

Thanks for the warning. I'd be concerned, except that I've been using pigears as treats for my two for over five years with no incidents. They're small dogs and they break off tiny bits and chew them up better than their regular dog food. Gross, but very neat about it :D

Samma managed to get into the trash about 4 years ago and munched down a bunch of cooked turkey leg bones. The vet checked her out and gave her a clean bill of health. He said he had had more health problems with larger dogs consuming bones, rawhides, pigears, and other "edibles" in his 30 years, than small dogs. Probably due to the fact that smaller dogs tend chew more and are less likely to crunch, then swallow long sharp bits of bone.

I don't know how much of his perception is true. I haven't had a large breed of dog in years. Any thoughts are welcome.

toodles

I think your vet could have a point Sara. My dogs can all get the whole pigs ear in their mouths and when it gets to the soggy mess stage, it sticks to the roof of their mouths or it lodges in the backs of their throats. Its not easy to retrieve either as you can't get hold of the slimy mess :rolleyes: They have also had problems with hide chews for the same reason. I tend to stick with Nylabones now and so far-so good

Slimy = ick. My hat's off to you for sticking your fingers in there & doing what you have to do. That's not fun at all. I know someone though, that has to cut up her pig ears because they terrify her Irish Setter. Go figure. I don't see how.

Actually, I wish mine liked nylabones. They ignored them from the get go. Kongs -- ditto. Not-food = no interest

Actually, they love the boodas, but I stopped giving those because their poop would get runny & colorful. Not worth the clean-up effort. So it's basically pupperoni bits for training aids, Iams biscuits, Pigears, & the occasional chew-hoof. They whittle those things down too. I've actually sliced my foot open from stepping on one. Nah, I don't have dogs, I have beavers :D

toodles

When your dog is choking you don't tend to give it a second thought ...its gotta come out. My lot love a hoof too! Why do all their favourite chews smell 'orrible tho :rolleyes: What are boodas?

Uncertain on linking stuff here. So if you go to google and run a search, there's some sites that will come up with pictures. They come in chips now, too apparently. I might try those one of these days.


edit: found advertisement online that explains all: Booda Velvet Bones --The new age dog chew. Booda Velvet Chips are a fresh new alternative to rawhide, rubber, common plastic, or animal by-product chews. Corn starch based and fully digestible. No stains or odors. Proven safe for dogs digestive systems. Five different delicious flavors to choose from: Bacon, Cheese, Chicken, Pork, and Premium.

Remember my Dad bought my BC a huge rawhide bone and after a few weeks of chewing the thing it stunk the house out it was one of the most awful smells ever.

Karen

Daft question here!!!

Are pigs ears that you get in Pet shops, the dried up plasticy looking things, really pigs ears????? I hope so as we give them to Holly when my sister comes round with her daughter and we get my sister to give them to her. Holly is very nervous of my neice and we're trying to encourage them to be friends.

My sister is a militant vege and it would be very funny if they are real dead pig :D :D :D :D
Fiona

Yes they are real Fiona.
Have you heard about Pizzles? :D

No, Do I really want to know what they are?????

Fiona

Don't worry, I've just done a search on Google and found out what they are!! Now that will be funny to see my sister handling them!!!!!

Word of warning:
Dogs love them but they don't 'alf pong! :D

You can get the snouts too. they really love hooves, but the smell of gnawed hoof is horrid, like burning hair, but worse!!! UGH!

what I do with marrow bones to prevent them getting smelly, is let them chew them fresh for a while, get rid of any bitc, and then I place the shanks in a baking tray, and roast on max temp for 45 minuted. They don't get smelly then!

I give the old bones to my friend for her dogs who would squabble over fresh ones, but find the bones that mine have been unable to demolish enough to chew on, but not worth a fight over!

Not very hygenic! It is a joke between us, I call them my 'dead bones' :D

I told hubby about Prizzles last night and he's spent most of this morning phoning around to get some. My sister is coming round at the weekend and she'll be given one to hand to Holly.

I can't wait to see the look on her face when I tell her what she's just given Holly :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Cruel, I know, but very funny!!!!!!!!!

Fiona

You wicked wicked lady:D I actually thought it would be quite funny watching my husband hand one over! You know on those days when they are doing iritating bloke type things.......

Hi Leigh PLEASE what are pizzles & what about fresh pigs feet are they OK? I`ve just got some for my dogs.
Christine.

Pizzles are a 100% natural chew for your dog. They clean their teeth and help solve bad breath (don't ask me how cos they stink) LOL Pizzles before they are baked :D
As for fresh pigs feet .......do you mean trotters? I would have said that it depends on how 'fresh' they are? Mightent the pig need em

Excoriate - remove part of the skin (of a person or in this case dog) by abrasion. In Jet's case over a metre of her intestine had been skinned and was, according to the vet "glowing". She was lucky it had not died and she did recover.

Christine

Thanks Christine,

A very scary situation for you, your poor girl - I'm glad she recovered.

Fiona

Very very funny Leigh lol,yes trottersfrom the butcher.Goin to look at pizzles now.
Christine

Hey Fiona,
Just thought I'd mention for the sake of your sister. I order my pig ears from the States in a big shipment once a year. Some are huge (well, about 4 inches across), with the ear cartilage & fuzzy hair still attached. They even have tattoos on them :D
Vegetarians really would not be happy in this household. :rolleyes:

toodles
& her content omivorous 'girls'

Oh, you can also purchase pig snouts, tails, cow's ears, lamb's ears and all assundry remnant bucher items these days :D Ick.

>>in giving dog's fresh bones as they are guaranteed to induce sever aggression"

I suppose they only ever see dogs that guard bones :rolleyes:

My lot wouldn't dare 'guard' their bones against a human. They have been taught that the bones are mine and that I will have them as and when I, or anyone else wants them. I have also watched them interact when they all have marrow bones. If one is chewing and another goes to 'have a look' ....the dog chewing the bone, moves the bone in the opposite direction of the 'looking' dog and just holds his head steady over it. The dog that was taking a look, reads this as "b*gger off" and leaves well alone. Not a grumble is heard, and if it was .... I would go and take all the bones away. End of story.

Incidently, a word of warning ref: Marrow Bones.
A friends bracco recently had to have a marrow bone removed under a GA, after he got his muzzle wedged inside the bone :rolleyes: Removal of said bone..... £107!

How have you managed to get your dogs to give up anything for you? I know this has been mentioned a few times in recent posts, but I'm havign real trouble with our GSD. he's very possessive over anything at all and once he has something, if he thinks it's worth something to you or that you want it, he won't give it up for the world. Anything you have, or even that our collie has, he wants. Am trying very hard at the moment to make me the 'boss' in their eyes as such - am using some of Jan Fennells techniques and other things mentioned in posts, such as the down dominance - resting on the dogs with my arms etc and making them used to being there for me, whcih someone suggested yesterday to Peter. the collie (bracken) will give me anything at all - he was mine from a pup which I think has helped. but rocky, the gsd, was my boyfriends and lived with his family as a pup. if you drop anything on the floor, he goes for it and if he gets it first, i've got no chance of getting it back. His ears go back and he covers the object with his whole body and growls. He's even been known to eat a whole lemon before, just so no-one else could have it. he's the same with toys - will go to fetch something for you, but won't then give it up. I feel sorry for him really, as he runs past me with a toy in his mouth, watching me and bracken playing and I know he wants to join in, but doesn't seem able to let himself. I never try and chase him as I know this will have the opposite effect. Am teaching him to give things up by offering treats if he drops somehting for me, but even this doesn't always work. I've seen him trying to put severel things in his mouth at once before so that he doesn't have to drop what he's already got! I've now banned all toys for a while until I get him sorted, but any good suggestions would be appreciated!

Ok on the bones subject the bones I was refering to are Raw hide - seems the behaviourist got hold of the wrong end of the stick. We have also been told by a vet that Natural Bones from the butcher run the risk of perforating the dogs bowel - so we gave them up long ago.

I have heard a tip on the guarding front - Do the swap. The idea is to condition your dog by starting off with something the dog doesn't value much. But the way to get the technique to work is to not bribe the dog with a swap but take a low value toy or whatever off him then get a reward out of your pocket. You have to do this 10 times a day with every member of the family working on low value items at the begginning working your way up to high value items. The only trouble I can see with this technique is that our dog Max, his values change minute by minute. We have always left his toys lying around as advised by the behaviourist to ensoure a plentiful supply of resource but that didn't make any difference. Any way we are going to try the swap method over a period of a month and see if it works - anyone else tried this technique. Did anyone else get their dog to really look forward to something being taken off them ?

Heather, they learn from day one that they are a dog and that I am the boss By using firm but kind handling and play, they learn their place in the heirarchy. Any problems that present are nipped in the bud the second they happen. I don't ask for their compliance,I give them clear instructions of what I require from them and they do it. It works for me and them I wish you luck with your GSD, they are a great breed. How old is he? Let us know how you get on.

He's 2 now. He's a bit of an odd bod really bless him!!! LOL. whatever bracken has had, rocky has to have it. even if bracken merely picks up a stick for a second, as soon as he drops it, rocks is there to get hold of it. He even tries to take food off bracken such as chews etc - he normally gets a severe ticking off by bracken, which lasts for about a week, then he'll be back to try and snatch things off him again (short memory!!) Needless to say, chews as well as the toys are banned at the moment! If he sees bracken cocking his leg on anything too, he runs straight up to wee there also. it sort of takes over his life really, which is what I don't like, as he runs to the item anyone's had or the spot Brackens' peeing on in a panic. if he's got a toy he won't let go of, he is really unfriendly if you go anywhere near him, but as soon as the toy is out of his sight, he bounces around, as friendly as anything with his tail wagging again! he's a bit of a split personality. my boyfriend got him when he was only just 6 weeks old, which seems very young to me - don't know if I'm right or not. If so, could part of it be that cos he's left his mum and siblings too early, he's not learnt all the 'doggie manners' he could of learnt off them!!? pleaes don't laugh if that's a stupid idea!!!

Leigh, that is just what my lot are like, but you have met most of them! LOL They are the same with other dogs visiting, as are my neighbour/friend's Dobes! They wouldn't dare squabble :D

I bought some black smelly slightly hairy things called tripe sticks which Barney really loves. Are they okay for him please? Ta Gina

Hi Gina - I've never had problems with tripe sticks (if you can bear the smell and don't mind the thought of feeding the lining of a cows stomach (I think that's what tripe is ?)). Many dogs (mine included) eat tripe daily - the sticks are just a dry version of this.
Sara

Oh good cos they do stink but he does love them. Hope they are not too fattening as he is on a diet LOL

Pizzles are fattening :D even when they are baked .....lol

Yeah Leigh - about 9 months and you put on loads ROFLOL

Just look at that link .....it'll put you off pizzles for life.. YUK!