Yes Alan, Elkhounds are lovely, and no I would not give them up, they would not let me. I'm probably as stubbon and b'minded as they are, so I undoutedly have the dogs I deserve Hows your little demon doing? 3 steps forward and 2.9 back I expect, tell you what I bet in a years time we will both be wondering why we were so worried about our little darlings slow progress. My pup was in the show ring for a few weeks, won reserve best pup in show and then forgot all about his training and behaved as if he hadn't a clue what was expected and refused to let anyone touch him, I decided to take him out of the ring and go back to basics. Fingers crossed it seems to have worked and I'm taking him to his first show for two months next Sunday to see how he is, if he seems happy I'll take him in the ring if not we'll have a walk round and then home for some more training. Must admit I'm a bit nervious. Don't expect you need to know all that, but I feel better, sorry.

John, Very many thanks.

Jackie,
I may not have 'needed' to hear all that, but I'm VERY pleased you said it. More so as it also made you feel a bit better.
I've found that the advice on this board isn't the only good stuff, what's written between the lines is every bit as usefull.
I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you on Sunday.

Gem is indeed taking 3 forward and 2.9 back!!
The frequency of 'good' work is increasing though, she will walk well to heel more often than not now. At least as long as there are no other dogs or people in sight!!!!
The new slip lead is great, it's got lots of spring in it which dampens the pull, so Gem is obviously more aware of very slight tightening of it. Sooo much better than the nylon one!
She must like it also. I can show her the old coller and lead and she just sniffs it, but as soon as she sees the slip lead she changes into GO mode

Alan

Oh Gawd sorry ..... the numbers all came off a KC list, so that sounds about right :rolleyes: lol

I am sure that John will contact you

Leigh

We're in need of your help yet again!

Just when I thought I'd got to grips with everything, Gem started biting again.

in the first 2 weeks that we were together, she bit a neighbours daughter, snapped at the vet's nurse who was feeding her treats, snapped at the vet and at me when I took a bone off her.
Every time there was no warning, not even a growl as she lunged.
I put all this down to her being messed around and only just coming to a new home.

Then a period of no biting, even though she was meeting new people including in our garden.

Last Monday we went out for a walk and a young girl asked if she could come and see Gem. I sat Gem down, the girl came over and as she reached forwards Gem bit her thumb, again no warning.
The girl's mum was VERY understanding and put it down to being 'just 1 of those things', though I had expected her to want Gem put down.

We took her to see a behaviourist, John McNeil, who has just won an award and 2 of my wife's colleagues have been to successfully.

Gem was her normal adorable self.

John's opinion is that this propably all stems from her past, e.g. not being socialised etc.

Next day we started at his classes, he doesn't train for treats which I was having a problem with at the other school. Gem did pretty well.

Next morning out for a walk and we see a young lad who has fussed Gem loads of times, but this time she went for him, which she has never done before. This time when I stopped her she growled at me.

I am now not at all confident that she can be allowed to meet other people.

Is it possible to get her over this biting ?
Is it my lack of experience that is making the problems worse?
Am I being over ambitious in trying to train a Springer as a first dog.

I was told Terriers were not an ideal choice for a first dog but that didn't stop me. Whats the point of having a breed that is suitable as your first dog if you don't want that breed!
Sorry you have having problems again but I would just continue with your training etc but I wouldn't not allow her to have people touch her as this could create more of a problem. Is it not possible to discuss this with John and ask him to make your training class aware and 'arrange' to have the other people in the class gently approach your dog and touch her and so on. I wouldn't let children near her to start with but if anyone asks to stroke your dog then ask them to approach gently with back of hand for her to sniff first (a method I always use and I haven't had a bad incident yet!) and then you can judge her reaction and they can then progress to stroking. I find with children that they always want to pat the head and raising your hand to a dog can be percieved as a threat and the dog will react accordingly. My dogs have never shown any sign of aggression to people but one of my dogs freaked so much at a toddler coming over to her and raising her hand to pat her head that she got out of her collar. Maybe they ought to be on a lead as well!
Good luck and all the best.

Hi Alan.

How do you react when she lunges/bites people? What is the first thing that you do? I need an idea of your reaction Email me if your prefer.

I do not consider that you are being over ambitious in training an ESS as a first time dog. What I do think is that you have taken on someone elses "problem" and that life would have been much easier for you if you had bought a puppy (blank canvas) Especially as you wanted to work it
It is possible that you may not be able to overcome the biting 100%. But once we have more details then maybe we can suggest some things to try.In the mean time, keep her away from kids . Have you got third party insurance? If not.. why not ......lol

Leigh

I'm so sorry you are having this problem with your bitch, it is, I'm sure, much more worrying than not doing a recall. As you know I had a similar problem with my puppy, not biting but growling and refusing to be touched, but fingers crossed we seem back on an even keel now. The only suggestion I can make is is she due in season, I have a bitch whos PMT turns her into a completly different dog, speying has not totaly stopped the cycle of moods. And I do agree never lift a hand above a dogs head. I'm going on a bit but think you should stick with the trainer you have selected at least for three or four weeks before taking on too many of the other suggestions, even though I'm sure they are equally valid. I do hope this is a tempory setback and something caused by her early treatment and that you with the help of your trainer will soon overcome. Jackie

Thanks again folks.

Leigh,
I have told her NO and pulled her back from the other person. When she snapped at me I held her mouth shut and told her off.
She now has no problem with me or my wife taking things off her, including her bone. I even take small peices of bone from inside her mouth.

Yes, I have got insurance!!

Bec,

The last incident, with the lad that had fussed her before, he approached slowly with the back of his hand. He didn't get the chance to try and stroke her!

Alan, sorry to hear you are having problems. The very first thing to try to ascertain is the reason why she is snapping. THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON! It may be difficult to determine but it is there. Is she just aggressive? (Don't sound like it) Is there something about the people concerned which could be responsible? (Again don't sound like it because it appears to be adult and children, men and women) Possessiveness? (Again not if it happened on a walk when there is nothing around for her to be possessive about) Medical? (I say this not because I really believe it to be the case in Gem's case but because the one big failure of mine was a GSP with a brain tumour. All the signs were there but for one reason or another I missed them and the owner did not have the knowledge to be able to see them.) One thing is certain, an answer is essential or the end is inevitable and we need as many clues as possible.
Can you move her food around on the floor or does she snap if you try? If she doesn’t snap is it because she has found from past experience that it is not a good idea? It's always possible to train a dog not to bite under certain circumstances but that does not make it a reliable dog. (The obedience Temperament test was a classic example of that! Unreliable dogs were trained to stand perfectly still for the test and my old Lab, taking a pace forward wagging her tail lost marks!)

Give us all the details you can Alan.
Regards, John

Alan, sorry another question ! Will she make eye contact with you ? What does she do if you make eye contact with her ? Can you hold her gaze or will she look away? Is it possible that all the people she took offence at were "staring" at her ?

Leigh

Hi Alan

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble, but I still think youhave made somebig steps forward so don't be disheartened.

Everyne seems to have made some very sensible and positive suggestions, I would especially agree with John n that you HAVE to not only "cure" the biting but you MUST work out WHY. This is absolutely imperative, or as John has pointed out you will never have a reliable dog. So whoever hellps you, make sure they help you tackle this aspect.

It sounds to me like nervousness but without seein gthe dog cannot be sure. Do you have any idea of her body language or does it all just happen too quickly?

If for ezample it is nervousness, the trainer needs to work with you and Gem to help her confidence. So, not just to train her not to bite, but to actually take away her moviation for biting in th efirst place.

Regarding the food, does she still get funny with you? Do you give her bones back? As giving the dog something when it has given up a cherished bone can be half th ebattle. I could always take away bones from all my dogs, because I used "Give" which they understood so there was no battle and they gave wilingly - their choice if you klike - and then sometime sgave the bones back, or gave them something else that they liked.

There are several ways to help dogs with a food guarding problem, the idea is to make them want you near their food. I hope this helps a bit, I am rather rushed and as usual havne'tgot your post in front of me so hope i havne't said anything daft!!

I'll pop back tomorrow to see how you are getting on, youhave so many people helping you I hope you feel better! Nothing helps like a bitof support from fellow dog owners and in your case especially fellow gundog people.

Best wishes
lindsay

Hi Lindsay, It’s good to see you posting again.
Food is important to gundog training as indeed it should be in all dog training. The old hands would never dream of allowing ANYONE to feed their dog other than themselves. The theory is that their dog BELIEVES it is totally dependant on them for it’s food and in fact you could say even it’s life! This puts them right at the top of the pecking order in their dogs eyes. (One of my comments to “The Flower” is, “Remember who works the tin opener!”) A handler of a working gundog needs far more control of his dog that the average pet dog owner so he is obviously going to carry training to a higher plane, but to a greater or lesser degree the same thing applies to the pet person.

Best wishes, John

Lindsay,
You are soooo right, it really is a help just to have replies from you guys. Being so ignorant in dog matters, it is easy to have the crisis of confidence. This board goes a very long way to countering that.

Leigh,
yes I can make eye contact, Gem holds it, though I haven't tried pushing it to see who drops first.
Although all the people were looking at her, I am sure they were NOT staring.
I useually give her the bone again. She doesn't turn a hair when I move her food bowl, though I always tell her to leave and she always gets the food again straight away.

John,

1st time was in the first few days, we had stoppedon the street and 2 neighbours came to see Gem. The lass came over and reached over Gem's head to stroke her.

2. I took her bone from her, told her off for snapping. Waited a couple of minutes then gave her the bone again, she took it nicely. No problem taking bone or toys since.

3. Vet's assisant was feeding her treats whilst sat on the floor at Gem's level. The vet looked in her ears OK, Gem was not happy about her looking at her eyes. When the Vet tried to examine her stomach, she snapped. ( there was a scratch on her stomach).

4. Stormy day, (labs were a bit skittish), my wife walked Gem past the pub, Gem was a bit skittish about a blackbord! The landlady, who had stroked Gem a week or so earlier, came over to do again and Gem snapped.

then 3 or so weeks with no problem....
5. Out walking& girl asked to see gem. I sat her down & the girl came over, quite quickly, hand out to stroke her, ( again over Gem's head).

6. out on the street again, Dom who has seen her and stoked her many times, came over. I put Gem in the down, he crouched a bit and offered the back of his hand to her and she snapped at him.
When I told her NO, there was a short quiet growl whilst looking at me.

I have moved her bowl around, mid feed, telling her to leave. No problems at all.

I have taken her bone and toy from her, again telling her 'dead', no problem. She 'noses' the bone / toy but doesn't try taking it.

I have examined her eyes, ears and teeth (not making her open her mouth), all no problem.

Having taken her bone I left my hand right next to her mouth, no hint of anything.

I don't know how connected this is, but when I got her she would go very submissive and frequently wet when approached. She no longer does this at all.
She would be at the end of the lead, inch or so off the ground, scrabbling forward. She now is pretty good almost all the time on a lead. ( in fact this mornings walk didn't have a single tight lead). Although she does not like walking at my side, always wants to be in front.

Sometimes if I walk past her as she goes to the toilet, she doesn't finish but rushes on and goes again later.

I f we leave her in her run she 'winges', although if we leave her on a running lead she seems OK.

If we let her have a bone or toy in her run, she barks at it from time to time and tosses it all over the place.

We always feed her in her run. She sits and waits, (when told !), for her food, till told to take it.

She is quick to learn. She now knows sit, down and come, (all voice & whistle),
'gently' means she runs on extended lead without pulling,
'this way' means turn,
NO, wait, off,
she knows she isn't allowed in the house, (although if I am inside she comes looking for me !!),
dead to give up what's in her mouth,
'take it' for food, bone , treat etc.
close (although she won't walk at my side).
Leave is new but she seems to be getting the hang of it.
She is learning 'get it' for play and fetch for work.

Altough she knows all this, she doesn't always do it first time. ( in fairness it's usually because there is a distraction.)

When we got together she knew : sit, stay, down (ish), and wait. She expected a treat for each.

I have discovered that on at least one occasion in her previous home, she was hit with a newspaper when caught chewing something that she shouldn't have.
Both previous owners were women and the first has at least 2 children, ( I don't know ages).
First owner 'often' buys puppies and gets rid at about 6 or 7 months!
I don't have any info on the breeder.

That's about all I can think of to tell you, unless you can think of something I missed. !!!

Oh!, and she will be the best gundog around, if only her owner can get 'it' sorted !!!!

Thanks all for your time and patience.

Alan

Hi Alan, just 1 question, Jackie suggested that maybe she is close to coming into season. Knowing some bitches can get a little funny at that time and noting from your very first posting that Gem is now about 11 months old, could this have a baring? I well remember a friend’s Flatcoat, doing an SDC, who had been picking up for over two seasons, crunching two birds! (Neither my friend or the judge was amused!!!)

From what you told us I would say Gem is inclined to be a bit nervous and also quite dominant. (not that that is unusual. Being nervous has never stopped humans from wanting to be in charge!) Possibly the early socialisation was not up to it and this coupled with a nervy puppy can easily end up with just the situation you are now in. Unfortunately you had no control over the early development.

Point 1 above: People “Towering” over the top of her, not forgetting of course that in the eyes of a little ESS puppy we all tower over the top!

Point 3: It doesn’t take any dog long to realise a vet’s surgery is a place to be feared!

Point 4: Stormy and particularly gusty weather often worries dogs. They get uneasy and even less confident than normal.

Point 5: Girl came over QUICKLY. Nothing more likely to worry a nervous dog.

Point 6: Did he hesitate or go boldly in? Hesitation is often fatal! (this is the one which worries me a bit. Can you think of anything which could have worried Gem at that time?)

Point 2: Taking a bone from her, I wouldn’t put too much on that. At that time you were still very much an unknown quantity to her. (“That nasty man’s pinching my bone!”) The fact that you can take food and bones from her without problems now points to the fact that she has grown to trust you.

I never like the dog who won’t look you in the eye although I don’t look into the eyes of a very young puppy whilst training, I look at the end of it’s nose. (Too long doing obedience and psyching the oppositions dogs out by staring at em!) As the puppy grows in confidence you find you can hold a dog on eye contact alone, but by that time the dog has learned your expressions and body language.

Although it is a submissive gesture, a lot of puppies lose control with excitement when you arrive home after being away and also if approached by someone they are not certain of but if it happens with someone they know well, like their owner when they have not been away I would suspect apprehension possibly at a result of something from a past owner. If it was only in the very early stages of getting to know you then no problems.

When out for a walk and she is going to the toilet and she stops as you pass, No problem. That’s quite usual. They can stop and start at will!! (You just try getting a specimen for the vet!)

Winging in the in the run. She just doesn’t like to be on her own!

Your comments on the previous owners lead me to wonder what control the first owner exerted on her children in respect of Gem. Possibly not a lot! I then wonder what Gem’s thoughts are when she sees children?

Training seems from what you say to be coming on very well. Springer’s heelwork is often a little forward, part of their natural desire to see what’s in the bushes!

Socialising any dog whether pet or working dog is extremely important. The Americans, who seem to love these details, worked out years ago that for the first 3 weeks of a puppy’s life there is nothing you can do to affect it’s mental development. From 3 to 7 weeks it needs other dogs (Bitch and litter mates) in order that it will react in a natural manner to other dogs and from 7 weeks human contact is needed the react normally towards humans. If any of these phases is missing the puppy is likely to not associate well with the item which was missing. Just how badly it will develop is dependant on its ability to bounce back from adversity. Socialising does not stop at 6 months old but is an ongoing thing and something you are going to have to work at. (I don’t doubt that you are anyway!) Try to read situations and screen her from anything which could worry her. Watch what’s happening. You’re looking for a trigger. If you can once find that you’ve got it made. She’s still a puppy yet so it’s not too late. Her early days may mean you will always have to take a little more care than you would have to with some dogs but with care you should be able to win in the end.

Please keep in touch and let us know how things develop.
Regards, John

Very well put John. I agree totally with what you have said.

Eye contact.
I think that it is vital. It 'speaks' volumes and tells you so much, but as you said....you have to know when to use it and when it is inappropriate.I wish I had a £ for everytime I have had to explain to a handler why their dog will not stay in a sit or down when they are looking/staring directly at it. The minute they learn to look away from the dogs eye's to a position just above the dogs head, they get the idea

I have just tried your "looking at the end of Reefa's nose" and apart from the fact that it made me go cross~eye'd , Reefa decided that it was "Game On" time and lept on me ..ROTFLOL methinks that it may be 'safer' not to try that one on Bear if that is the reaction that I get

Leigh

John,

Many thanks, I'm still digesting your comments and will indeed keep you posted.
Feels like I can see the light at the end of the tunnel again!
Last incident, he was hesitant!

Gem was spayed before she came to me, so it's difficult to know if the season thing is an issue. I appreciate that it may still affect her.

I have discovered a little more from her last owner, who took her to visit family who own a Great Dane. Favourite trick was to push Gem down with it's paw. Could this account for her taking on bigger dogs before they get a chance to 'get' her?

Also first owner's kids are 5 and 7 ish. The 7 year old boy would race around the house with Gem chasing.

Whilst they walked her on the estate, it was not a regular occurance, so she spent most of her first 7 months in the house / garden.

Alan

I just have to share this with you :D

Out walking this morning doing sit stays and calling Gem to heel, (using the long lead), we were being watched by another dog walker.
As we passed she said good morning and 'I wish my dog was that well behaved, I could never get him to do that'.

Proud or what !!

Very many thanks to all of you who helped me keep going, without that support.........

As you might guess we are progressing and the light at the end of the tunnel is looking increasingly bright.

While she still growls at other dogs and people, once I tell her NO and sit her down she seems to be happy to wait quietly for me to finish making weird noises and get on with our walk.

At school she is much more relaxed, spending much of our waiting time sat beside me or lay under my chair looking to see if she can steal a treat or two. (she's happy to steal from anyone else too!! :o ). She 95% ignores the other dogs when they bark etc., a major improvement.

Yesterday, I sat her in the middle of a recently harvested field, (full of rabbit scent !), and walked to the end of the 16' lead. Wandered back and forth whilst she waited.
With the sun painting the stubble a rich warm gold, Gem almost in silhouette and looking just soooooo good.
Fair took my breath away.

Thanks again.

Alan n Gem

Been away and just seen your posting, so pleased to hear you are back on the upward slope again, you have and still are working so hard you do deserve success. My little beast still keeps coming up with new antisocial habbits for me to try and sort out, and I keep plodding on & on & on. If I, or more to the point he, live long enough we may get there in the end. He's such a nice puppy, I wish I could tell him how silly he is being and as if like magic he would behave himself. Still children speak and hear and I've not noticed it makes them behave any better.

Makes it all worth while went it starts to come together! Well done Alan!

Regards, John