I had a lady telephone me for advice today, wanting
to know what she should do with her dog. He is three
years old, and has taken to running off when she takes
him walks. They found him beside a sheep with its throat
ripped out. They are not totally sure he had done it, but
assumed he had. She asked where she could get advice
on this problem. I really did not know how to address the
problem. If their is anyone with advice I could pass it on to
her as she has no access to a computer.
The only advice she has been given was by her vet, that said
do not tell anyone, or you will get in trouble. This still does
not help this lady, as she has a dog that she can not trust.
I had always been told, if a dog killed a sheep then it would
always seek a sheep out. Unfortunately for her she has just
moved house into an area that is full of fields of sheep. So she
is worried sick.

HHmmm.......

Nutkin, are we talking weimaraner here? I have experience of a number of 'rescue' GSP's who have killed sheep. The situation can be 'controlled' depending on the dog/owner/circumstances etc, but I do not feel that the dog can ever be 'cured' as such. From experience, rehoming the dog to a city enviroment does not always 'avoid' the situation either! Email me if you think I can be of any help. I would also strongly recommend that she change her vet!

She will have to excercise him on a lead when in an area where sheep are,that would be a start,we have had sheep killers in our rescue and have rehomed them in areas which are not rural and they have been ok.

Absolutely. Keep this dog firmly on a lead. I would have thought she would have had an idea whether he'd done it or not. Did he have blood on him? If it was a fresh kill and there was no other dogs about then I would say it was certainly him. Its awful but I agree with the vet, she should keep quiet about this and consider herself very lucky that the farmer was not anywhere near with his shot gun. a dog dosn't have to be worrying sheep, being in the same field is enough to get the dog shot without question. To avoid this happening in the future, for the safety of the sheep and her dog, please tell her never to let it off the lead.

Iam afraid the story you heard is true , if a dog kills a sheep he will always.I remember before the dog laws here in ireland hundreds of lambs were killed in the night by dogs. The thing is it was family pets that were doing the killing . The dogs were packing together and going miles for a kill . I had a neighbour come into me one morning saying her dog was hurt and covered in blood , I did not even need to check the dogs body when I saw and smelt him I knew he had been on a kill and the blood was from sheep not a wound. I told her what I thought it was and she would not accept her dog would kill . however , he went missing one night , and never came back so I presume he was one of the dogs shot when the farmers lay in wait for the raid on the sheep. Idont think there is much of it now as most dogs are not allowed roam anymore. just as well Mari

Hi Nutkin.
As the others have said, a dog who has killed and got a taste for it will kill again given the chance.
As to what can be done about it, this depends on how much this lady is in charge, (How her dog views her) whether she has a friendly sheep farmer and of course how much effort she's prepared to put into it. To cure something like this is never going to be easy (or nice) and without a friendly farmer it is unlikely to be very successful.
If I can be of any help email me. You will find me addy in my profile.

Regards, John

On a lighter note . my sharpei puppy is a potential sheep killer she attacks the sheepskin rug and does it again the next day . proving she has a taste for it :d

shes not lying either marie-sharpei and sheep dont go

better get the rug a pen

Mari,
Try the "authentic virgin acrylic sheepskin" material sometime. My two have the kill down pat for that rare vicious breed of sheep never seen alive or whole. If one ever appears in my yard, they'll know just what to do to protect me :D :D :D (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
toodles

for eoghania :D :d

As a sheep farmer & a dog owner I can perhaps view this from both sides. There are ways of trying to teach dogs not to look at sheep, but to be honest, once its got to this stage, there islittle help. Living where she does, this dog will have to be kept on a lead for life, how cruel, what a miserable life for a dog. Rehoming to a sheep free area is not really a responsible idea, afterall, sheep can be found in most cities these days, (city farms/parks etc)and who is to say that circumstances will not change & people will move back into a sheep area at some point?

Sam why is it sheep dogs go for . why do they not attack say pigs , just curious, Mari

have you smelt pigs????would you if you where a dog, -theyre not flock animals either, and much less kept, id imagine a pig would put up a fight too, anyone know wether a pig would?

What I would like to know is why has she never trained the dog properly?
I'd appreciate a serious reply to that question, there are so many dogs over this past 10 years or so which are cruely confined to collar and lead forever and certainly in London the vast majority pull on leads.

The research and autopsies done in Sweden by Dr Andress Hallgen and a team of chiropractitioners over the lifetime of 400 dogs show the following results;

Pulling on leash; Of those dogs that had Cervical (neck) anomalies, 91% had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a leash.

It might cross her mind that she obviously has to keep it on a lead but if it is so untrained pulling is a high possibility, the above results apply not just to sheep worrying dogs.

Failing that I would suggest she opens a cut price Kebab shop, Tesco also have a special offer on mint sauce this week.

Hi dizzy,
Oh, pigs will fight and they can be vicious. Ever get around a sow and her piglets? They're also much larger & if they have tusks, it will rip a dog open... They're also fast and agressive. Not easy prey for the average dog. Unlike sheep.

Sheep....well, don't get me wrong....sheep are stupid because humans have bred them for other things than brains. Mountain sheep, like those roaming in Scotland, are smart because they still have the "wild" mentality to survive. The ewes will take better care of their lambs and protect them.

Domestic sheep will run in circles, scatter, & even sometimes stop running to just baa at the "enemy." Not very smart in my thinking. Now if there is a ram in the group, he'll sometimes charge the predator...but domestic ewes.......

A German farmer told me this about 10 years ago... I don't know if its true... If you sneak up on a sleeping sheep and suddently scare it into wakefulness, it's possible that it will die just from the sudden shock.

I've always heard the adage about once a dog gets a taste for killing sheep, it will never stop. I haven't experienced anything to support or argue against this point. But I do think.... If there's pleasure in it for the dog --adrenaline rush, chase, etc.. why would it ever stop?
just my humble opinion :D
toodles

Sam , rehoming in a sheep free area is not responsible! why ! tell me why,would you prefer the dogs shot!! I have been rehoming dogs over ten years, and I do a pretty good job of it I can tell you and as anyone on this board who are or have been in Rescue will tell you we try to preserve life if at all possible.And I Say IF ! living a life in a fairly sheep free zone where the dog is on the lead and under strict control is better than being put to sleep,I know there are sheep in a lot of places ! common sense tells anyone with a problem dog To KEEP IT ON A LEAD!!.

MATTIE, IF YOU READ MY POST YOU WILL SEE WHY i SAID IT..........the new home might be in a sheep free area for now, but what about if they move area? or a city park springs up nearby, or the neighbour decides to keep a goat?????? the list of possibilities is endless, all I am saying is that the "sheep free area/home" is not a certainty.

could she not muzzel the dog .And that is aweful keeping quite you have to address the situation or the killing if he is doing it will go on.

Patricia

A muzzle would not be the answer as the dog could still do a lot of damage merely chasing the sheep.

I originally come from Anglesey, where we have LOTS of sheep and one of my school friends lived on a sheep farm. I remember an occasion when a dog killed two of their sheep and the dog's owner came forward (a rare occurence I'm afraid). My school friend's parent (the sheep farmers) solution to the problem was to put the dog (muzzled) in a pen with a ram for half an hour, everytime the dog went near the ram, he got headbutted. It's rather a bruising solution but in this case it was effective, the dog never went near sheep again!
But just because the dog was found next to a dead sheep, doesn't mean the dog killed it. My best suggestion is to see how the dog reacts to sheep while on a long lead and depending on the dog's reaction go from there.

Hi
When I did Lab rescue, we took in a dog that had killed 2 lambs and1 ewe. With much consideration I re-homed the dog in a location where the he would not come into contact with sheep. All was well for a while but then he turned his attention to other things, i.e cats. Having killed 2 within 4 weeks, I had the dog put to sleep. Once a killer, always a killer, they don't change.
Dawn B

And yet my dog killed a cat when he was seven in 1995. Despite then living next door to three others for the remaining six years of his life, which regularly came into the garden he never did it again. And if he was out on off lead walks and came accross a cat I could stop him in mid-flight if he began to chase it.

I suppose the key thing here is training, and where the stake are high, (i.e. arounds sheep) no off lead exercise.

I had a dog who killed several bantams and a hamster, but lived happily with cats all his life....... I'd say a commitment to keep this dog muzzled if he shows any signs of aggression in the vacinity of sheep would be the sensible way to go. After all Foxhounds kill every week - but they're the nicest dogs away from the hunting scenario......

What breed is the dog out of interest? I live in an area with loads of sheep and having kept numerous different breeds I have only experienced problems with GSD's and sheep which is suprising (hasn't killed any but probably would given half a chance).

I must ask you this do the fox hounds have a funny bark .Yesterday a hound dog type
started barking at zac from a window and the bark was so strange we was really laughing at it.

foxhounds don't bark.

Then I will have to ask the owner it looked just like a hound but a little smaller very nice looking dog or pup
and it was not a bark but this funny long sound

Patricia

Beagles have an odd sounding bark,its more like a howl.

Dogs bark....hounds bay... & Basenjis chortle.... Happy Sam? :D :D Come on, we've all heard foxhounds vocalize...just because it's slightly different and considered a baying sound, technically it's still barking :D Why be so picky?

Kind of reminds me of the ancient adage... Horses sweat; Men perspire; [$ Women glow..... well, forget about that one. I sure give off a sweaty glow out there digging in the garden ])
toodles

Hiya all,
Wow! lots of views!
To answer a few questions. Yes the dog is a Weimaraner, they used to
live close to me and he is a huge dog. He has a very strong hunting instinct.
The problems started when he started running off, and would not come back.
He started going off for a few minutes, then longer and longer. One day he was gone for hour and half and the lady left and went to Tescos and done her shopping and returned later to find him in the car park where they had first parked. She tried training him with a whistle, to come back, but nothing worked, she took him to training classes. But obviously did not work. The lady has just moved to Wales of all places and the dog is surrounded by sheep. The lady dare not let him off the lead at all, so the dog looks like it is on the lead for life, which is no fun for a Weimaraner. She contacted me as she knew me, but is so desperate as she loves the dog, and would never give him up, but she just does not know what to do. The lady owns another Weimaraner that she bought from me and he is two years old, and he never ever leaves her side. Even when the other one runs off. The two year old is behaved, and the total opposite, so I do not think the lady can be at fault here, as she would have two monsters. What do you all think?
Again thanks for the comments. I have Weimaraners obviously and two pet sheep and my dogs will walk between the sheep and not blink an eye lid. We also own a cat, which they all love. Anyway back to the lady in
question, I am still unsure how to advise her as I think the dog will go after
sheep for ever.
Nutkin.

Nutkin,
I'm in complete agreement with you about this dog. He's strong, independent, and has his own agenda. Since he's learned to escape...it will be near impossible to keep him contained. And having sheep in the area makes it wrong for her to keep him if he is the one doing the killing. I'm for finding out with an extend-lead to see what he'll do before sentencing him to death.

But if he is killing sheep, one of these days, the lady won't have to try to figure out what to do... He won't come home because the farmer has shot him and solved her difficulty. Happened to an Irish Setter I knew when I was a kid who developed a taste for chickens. Farmer killed him and that was pretty much it.
toodles

Hi all,

I don't know if this sounds like a cruel thing to do, but what about a muzzle? If your friend can get some help with the training side (sounds like the dogs thinks it is alpha) then the muzzle might be a temporary solution. My lab Dudley would snap at other dogs, so we put the muzzle on him while we exercised him and it worked well. I think your friend has a long way to go before she can let the dog off the lead. She needs to find the root of the problem and work from there. The dog has no respect for her at all. She needs to gain his respect and then he'll start listening.

Wendi
Dudley &
Bernie

sorry, but mine definitely DO NOT BARK. They do howl a bit, but never bark.

I'm not sure if it's a odd sounding bark, but it's definitely an enthusiastic bark. We've got one at puppy classes and between her and the JRT I leave with a resounding headache after each class.

Fiona

Fiona, ,might earplugs help to just ease the noise level for you? They don't have to be completely in, just enough to take the edge off of the pitch for you. Good luck. I'm feeling a lot of sympathy for you.

Yes, you are all right!
I think keeping him on the lead is one of the only
options.
I think, find out if he is deaf first. Then find out
the exact training he has had.
I hate to say it but if he was mine, I would have
him put to sleep as the dogs life will be a misery.
I also think about where he lives in Wales, with
sheep surrounding him. It does not seem fair to
the dog, the lady, or the farmers that have only just
got over foot and mouth and now buying up new stocks, with
out a dog killer in the midst. I now want this lady
to contact me, I really hope she does soon as at least
I have plenty to tell her. Its such a shame:(
I feel for them all. As a dog is such a wonderful, part
of our lives.
Nutkin.

Didn't know that. Do they bay - or are they totally non-vocal on the hunt?

Butter

If it was me I'd have the dog destroyed, and as for the vet recommending she keeps quiet - I won't tell you what I think of him

A very sad situation all round

Fiona

Fiona, I know what you mean about the vet, but in some ways (s)he does have a point. I do think that putting the dog down is a bit extreme. I don't want to start the 'to smack or not to smack' discussion again, but I reckon the owner is going to have to take fairly stern measures with the dog, and as John said, she is going to need some sheep to practice with. But although it isn't easy to sort out a sheep chaser, and the dog will never be reliable with sheep unsupervised, it isn't impossible.

Hi Nutkin,
Are you still around?

Can you tell me if she ever went to any kind of training classes?

Hello,
I am back now!
Yes she did go to training classes.
Makes me wonder how much she has told the truth,
you know how it is :rolleyes:
Her one dog is very behaved. He will not leave her
side. Comes back when calls.
You know what I wondered, if the dog was deaf!!!
But then I have never know a Weimaraner to have
hearing problems, only when they choose to. If
you know what I mean. But that to me would explain
why he never comes when called. I think I will ask
her if he can hear the next time she calls.
Nutkin

Hi Nutkin, Tell the lady to get the dog hearing tested, and in the meantime get him a strong muzzle, the greyhound type so he can pant, but one that he cant get off, that way he can be exercised and if he runs off he cant do any damage. Alternative get a long (as in a horses lunging rein) lead and keep him on that. She must get some help (professional) and if you let me know where abouts in Wales she is I currently have a list of dog trainers in wales, as I have been looking for another rescue dog down there.

Lets hope we can help!

Lynn

Hiya Lynn,
Thanks for that bit of advice.
I will tell her to get the dog hearing tested. That idea only came to
me this evening. It would be wise to muzzle the dog.
If he is not deaf, do you think a long lung rein, and prehaps go into a sheep field with
farmers permisson. By giving him a long rein make him sit and watch
the sheep and keep repeating this or would this be a bad idea?
She is going to telephone me soon, as I told her I would try and get
some ideas from someone. As she has just moved house, she does
not have access to a computer at the moment but she is going to
get one up and running. I will give her this sites address so she can
see, everyones replys, also get her to prehaps contact you at your
e-mail address. I am off now for the evening. Out of interest, have you
heard of any Weims suffer with deafness?

Nutkin, as you already know the weimaraner is a German hunting dog
You have told us that this dog has been allowed to have his 'head'. He is 'self hunting' now. Sitting him in a field full of sheep, on a long line is not going to curb his natural instinct to hunt and kill or teach him that it is not acceptable behaviour. If anything, this will make the problem much worse, so yes this is a bad idea :D I am sure that Lynn will be able to offer help on this one. I just hope that the owner is prepared to listen and act upon any recommendations that are made. Good Luck

Hi Nutkin,
I was just thinking, if she wanted to confirm if he was an actual sheep killer, wouldn't some type of protein residue show up in his stool that she could take to have analyzed by the vet? (a different one, obviously). I realize he wouldn't be neccessarily eating the dead sheep, but the iron level in the blood would be somehow digested.

Another possible method is to have his teeth cleaned at the vet. Blood would definitely be showing up there. Just a thought to determine if he's actually guilty.
toodles

Weims I have to disagree with you.....a hell of a lot of damage can be done by a muzzled dog. 3 years ago a collie x killed 120 sheep on our neighbouring farm........he panicked them 'til they ran into the corner of the field & suffocated in a big heap. He didn't bite a single one! Further more, a muzzled dog can still chase, & at this time of year, will cause ewes to abort their lambs.

Hi Nutkin

The poster who said that sheep can die of fright is correct. Muzzling would not be the answer. A large dog running amock in a field of sheep is capable of doing a great deal of damage even muzzled. Panicking sheep can create havoc trampling lambs and injuring themselves on barbed wire and a farmer spotting this is likely to shoot first and who could blame them for protecting thier livelihood. The cost of replacing damaged stock could be considerable - of course - this depends on whether the perpetrator is likely to come forward and take responsibility for their dogs actions!

This dog is best kept on a leash unless it is a secure environment free of livestock.

No Nutkin, sitting him in a field of sheep will not stop him chaseing, it would be stupid of me to say it would make him worse cause >IF< he did kill a sheep he is already a killer BUT sitting him in a field is teasing and has the same effect that holding sweet just out of reach has, as soon as he can he will lung and grab it.

First and more important find out if he is deaf, in the meantime can you find out what kind of training she had, equally important.