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By Geri68 [gb] Date 18.08.05 19:03 GMT
Can any one tell me more and does any one here use it?

Gez
X
By digger (***) [gb] Date 18.08.05 20:08 GMT
I don't use it.  So called 'amichien bonding' is a corruption of Rank Reduction Programmes, which were used some years ago, but most trainers and 'behaviourists' have moved on since finding out studies of captive wolves (on which most of these theories were based) were flawed as our dogs are actually nearer in their behaviours to WILD wolf pups or adolescents than adult wolves.  A wild wolf Alpha does not always insist on eating first, nor does it insist that a subordinate allow it through a gap first (there are very few gaps in wild wolf territory anyway).  It seems to me the reason these programmes work for some dogs is that they are introducing consistency were previously there was none.  Many dogs actually go further down hill under rank reduction programmes, which is why questions were asked and most trainers have moved on.
By jenny (*) [gb] Date 18.08.05 20:14 GMT
well said digger. cant think wot to add to that. 
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 18.08.05 20:48 GMT
I can think of LOOOADS of things to add to that.

However id be booted off this board for libel or something regarding the person who invented 'amichien'.... so i wont.

Dont go there, is my advice!

Em
By mannyG (**) Date 18.08.05 20:52 GMT
Never heard of amichien bonding , what is it? UK thing?
By hairypooch (***) [gb] Date 18.08.05 22:07 GMT
Manny, type in "Amichien bonding" into google and you will see the results ;-)

Afraid that I too, would be contravening libelous rules if I were to say what I thought about this "training method".

Dogs should be trained with respect & understanding, it's a two way street as far as I'm concerned. If you promote trust from the onset then you should never have a problem that can't be solved.

I have always found that when my dog/s trusts me, it/they respect me and once we have conquered that then the rest usually follows. Very simple analogy I know. Put it this way, would you be willing to learn from one that enforces their ideas upon you because they have some preset idea on the way that your mind works, or one that guides you through and listens/trys to understand  you?
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful!
By mannyG (**) Date 18.08.05 22:34 GMT
I've searched and i still don't understand much haha , fill me in!
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 18.08.05 23:24 GMT
Amichien bonding, as i understand it, is supposed to make your dog your friend (ami = friend, chien = dog).

However its based on some VERY strict rules which to my mind are 'negative punishment' (ie you punish the dog by NOT giving him something, by NOT doing something) -- ie a lot of ignoring, a lot of eating first, walking through doorways first etc etc.

Now sometimes it has results, usually in cases where the dog has previously had no set boundaries and is then given some. All of us, dog or man or horse or fish even (yes fish need boundaries with each other!).... need boundaries, what is and isnt acceptable, rules to live by.

BUT -- its highly possible and has happened, that these rules are taken too far. A happy, well balanced dog is ousted from teh sofa or the bed, is ignored where previous it was fussed. This can result in a depressed dog, it can result in an aggressive dog!

Its based, as has been said here, on theories that are flawed, adn in any case were carried out on far too small a study group. The ideas behind it are outdated and frankly silly, working on the idea that dogs view man as = to dog, and taht dog wishes to dominate man. Both of these are untrue, dog is capable of identifying cat, dog, horse, rabbit, sheep (and in one of my dogs case, HER cat from 'any other cat') so to think they CANT differentiate between man and dog is ridiculous.
Its true that dog CAN dominate man, but this only ever happens where the dog has been rewarded for doing so, and in all the cases ive seen, the dog is NTO happy with his lifestyle at all. No dog is born WANTING to become dominant over humans, thats a purely human need!

Sadly a lot of peple still believe this 'dog wants to dominate' and 'man should be pack leader' thing and the amichien idea does NOTHING to prevent that.

Dogs DO need leaders, but the way to do it is by trust and respect gained by kindness and firmness and patience, not by fear and domination.

Em
By Missthing (*) [gb] Date 19.08.05 08:03 GMT
Theemx, I totally agree.  I have spent the last year or so exploring different perspectives on human/canine relationships as I have two rescue dogs.  The 'amichien bonding' stuff was quickly discarded for the reasons you give. I also found it destroys the spontaneous aspects, particularly affection and fun, of your relationship with a companion animal. It was also totally ineffective with a serious problem one of my dogs had and set us both back a couple of months.

I find Gwen Bailey is very good for sensitive, practical advice, Suzanne Clothier gives you a spiritual/philosophical view and I am sure there are other well respected authorities other posters can recommend - I am just about to collect 'The Culture Clash' from the bookshop as this came highly recommended on this site.

On a related topic, when I was searching for agility classes in my area I was disheartened to find how many trainers use the A-B rules and make it quite clear that anyone who thinks differently simply won't be welcome.
By digger (***) [gb] Date 19.08.05 08:07 GMT
Can you explain the A-B rules please?  I've only dabbled in agility, and then only with a positive trainer...
By Missthing (*) [gb] Date 19.08.05 11:31 GMT
Sorry to be so unclear - I was just doing a general Google trawl of all training classes in the West Midlands and came up with this info. It wasn't specific to agility classes but I suppose the AB principles can be applied in every dog/human interaction if you subscribe to them.
By slobdog (*) [gb] Date 19.08.05 10:30 GMT
Hi,

Can you explain how you saw agility trainings implimenting the AB rules?  I've never heard of this training before so am just trying to understand.  And being an agility instructor am intreagued as to how agility instruction follows these rules?
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 19.08.05 13:00 GMT
Yep.

My dog Abby, her previous owner trained her using these methods (although he's never read the Dog Listener or heard of amichien), he did the 'me boss, you dog' routine, trained using fear and domination.

It was a revelation to Abby that she COULD do something without being told to, she could make up her own mind wether to lie on the floor or the sofa.
It was an even bigger revelation that she could ask ME to do things. We got there by training with postive reward based methods, and patience. Now she knows its a two way relationship, she will now ask to go to the toilet, ask for a cuddle, show her affection and pleasure at my return etc etc.

Ok some of her ways of doing this might not be suitable in other peoples houses (affection is shown by grring and mouthing, she wants a cuddle she will wallop me in the back of the knee wiht a sharp set of claws), but id rather she was happy and has communication tools she never had before!

Some people believe owning a dog means owning a small furry robot. I personally dont, if i wanted something i had to instruct on every single matter, id dress my computer up in a dog suit!

Em
By tohme (****) [gb] Date 19.08.05 11:29 GMT
I have used it, to light a bonfire......... :D
By Nickyxh (*) [gb] Date 19.08.05 12:03 GMT
Oh dear - should I use 'The Dog Whisperer' to light a fire then too - that has a section on amichien bonding - I thought it was really dull and boring - I made it through about 2 pages on the amichien bonding chapter and nodded off and I'm new to dog ownership!  The Culture Clash - though...now that is an excellent little book! really makes you think.

I'm glad I don't have to follow these rules any more (I thought it was essential!!!!!!!), we've been trying to feed Kiera after us, walk through doors, etc first - but she seems to know her place and it just seems a bit pointless and damned inconvenient when it comes to eating times!! :D

Nx
By LucyD (***) [gb] Date 20.08.05 05:46 GMT
Hear hear, our friend when trying to help our dog fighting problem said to feed them after us but it's so much easier to be mixing up food when I'm in the kitchen checking on our food. I shall boldly change back!! I did enjoy the Culture Clash which had some new ideas (to me!), but I am thinking more and more that you just have to do a mixture of anything that works for your dog!
By jelajo (*) [gb] Date 22.08.05 02:49 GMT
I wouldnt say all that goes with AmiChien bonding is bad, yes there are certain areas which seem a bit " i am your master you do as i say" but in some cases it does work, i would say it depends on the dog and person. As someone who always wants to learn about dogs, i read and listen alot. It is worth taking on all aspects of different ways until you find what works for you and your dog, the key is (PPR) patience persistence and respect. For example.....if your dog greeted you happily, excited yet controlable why would you then ignore them on coming home as with the Amichien bonding . If you decide to take on 1 method of Amichien bonding it doesnt mean you have to take on them all. If the dog greeted you uncontrolably jumping at faces, nipping, barking (especialy a large breed) then the Amichien bonding could work well with re establishing rules such as ignorance until calm, then praise for doing the correct behaviour. I myself do use some Amichien bonding techniques with my 2 large breed dogs, but i also wouldnt use others on them. It is a case of studying, understanding and implementing what works best for you and your dog. I know many people who have had problems in certain areas and practised Amichien bonding in that area and all is well, they didnt take on the whole concept of Amichien, just the problem area. I agree That Gwen Bailey is great also, but again there are certain things i wouldnt do with mine.
This is Just my opinion and hopefully i can be free to express it, people will choose for themselves what they do and do not believe, usually through practice.
Jodi
By Moonmaiden (****) [gb] Date 22.08.05 06:36 GMT
Amichien bonding is meant to be a one size fits all total "method".

The ignoring unwanted behaviour & rewarding the required behaviour has been around for 30+ years before the the"author"of Amichien bonding even thought about their method
MM \O^O/ OMG Rjj is 4 eek cool Jessie is 3 :-) Mr Wu is 1 eek eek Roodee is here ;-)
By ceejay (***) [gb] Date 22.08.05 14:32 GMT
I read The Dog Listener and thought it sounded so much sense that I was determined to follow it all down to the letter.  I decided to take on the challenge of having a border collie after having had 2 setters.  However there is alot that doesn't make sense.  How can you ignore a puppy when you need to take it out straight away and get it clean in the house? I was getting really at my wits end when last week she displayed aggressive guarding behaviour of food that she had 'found' as well as the jumping and nipping tactics not working either.  How can you ignore a persistent dog asking for play or trying to stop me walking away from her in the garden.   However I found this message board.  I have read other threads, had some good advice from members and followed information up on other sites.  I lost sleep last week thinking that my dog would have to go - first thing my husband said was 'right she will have to go we can't have a dog that bites'  But I am not giving up on her -  the answers were not in the book but due to the time that people are prepared to put into answering people's queries on this board I have been able to keep things in perspective.  It is great to be able to have an instant information service -Thanks
Books are great to make you think - but you have to read more than one.  
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 22.08.05 15:48 GMT
Hi ceejay,

A very sensible post :-)  I'm so glad that you're seeing an improvement in your dog and great that you've benefited from the forum - as you say, advice from books isn't the only way to go.

Good luck with your dog, regards, Teri :-)
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By becks (*) [gb] Date 23.08.05 14:41 GMT
I have to say I used it loads on my dogs. I really wanted to be the best dog owner for me and my dogs possible. All my dogs have seemed happy and close to me. Then again I didn't keep to rules about sofas. I was not completely strict but far as I can tell it did no harm what I did put in place. I never ignored them on coming home either.

Which is why when I got my sheltie puppy I was going to do all the same things until I read this forum and felt very outdated!  So dropped most of the ideas from it. Well, at first I dropped all of them but I did notice if I did feed my dog before me he was very demanding when I'm eating. He still is demanding but much less now I feed him after not before. Plus it makes sense if you teach your dog that he must follow you through doorways etc. Not due to the dominance issue per say. Just its very handy because your dog is less likely to bolt out of doors into the road and get run over. Also makes sense to greet human members before the dog but i certainly greet the dogs tons more after than the humans. :D 

I do agree with some aspects still but certainly my eyes have been opened. However I feel a bit lost as to what are all the right ways at the same time. :p
By jelajo (*) [gb] Date 23.08.05 16:53 GMT
Becks i understand what you mean, i think each individual person and dog has there own ways of dealing with things, its up to us to choose what method we prefer, even if its a mix of allsorts. There is no real wrong or right way as far as im concerned. As long as both dog and human are happy and contented, one thing works wonders for 1 dog and another dog may hate it. The only rule for everyone is patience persistence respect, be kind to your dog and understand each other on a level so you can communicate. Every dog trainer wherever you go will teach a dog to wait for a door to be opened, it is a safety measure not a dominance issue. They also ask you to walk away from your dog or turn your direction if it does not follow or recall so the "human" initiates the walk, this again isnt a dominance issue it is having a well behaved dog that can prevent dangers as other dogs kids people roads. The world in which we live is not a naturel enviroment for a dog no matter what size or breed, it is up to owners to be in control of there dog, this doesnt mean that you are dominating your dog.
My dogs used to go bonkers when i returned home to them, i really loved the greeting personally but knew it wasnt on, my mum or friends visiting surely wouldnt feel the same about 2 Large Ridgebacks knocking her over jumping all over her for attention, and one day i will be pregnant or a visitor with a baby or small children. I therefore now ignore them on first retuning as they get so excited, after about 5 minutes when the excitement settles, i then give them my love and cuddles, i still interact with my dogs regularly but on my terms. My partner however doesnt do this and they go mental with him, even causing him a bloody nose once, but he loves the greeting and they now only do it with him and nobody else, they have learned if there calm they get a fuss which makes them happy.
Jodi
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 23.08.05 17:28 GMT
Snip "Which is why when I got my sheltie puppy I was going to do all the same things until I read this forum and felt very outdated!  So dropped most of the ideas from it. Well, at first I dropped all of them but I did notice if I did feed my dog before me he was very demanding when I'm eating. He still is demanding but much less now I feed him after not before. Plus it makes sense if you teach your dog that he must follow you through doorways etc." Snip

Hear, hear.  Quite honestly it does wear a bit thin this continual gripping re: Fennel.  So what if the ideas are old, based on flawed theory or the marketing campaign is slick and gets on your nerves because within it all it does contain some valuable information put in an easy to read and understand format. 

Sorry, but I believe that well regulated meal times are important within a multi dog household, nor do I think it a good idea when going through a door or up stairs for 3 dogs to think it alright to charge right past me.   Her advice on SA is certainly not new and has been described by many different sources, so what - it also happens to work. 

I use (and always have) various methods that she describes and strangely enough, depressed dogs have not been the result in my experience.  Dogs that during thunder storms or when idiots have let fireworks off run to me and walk calmly home at my side whilst those living with clicker evengalist friends have run off in panic.  But to me the clearest indication that these methods might hold some value was coming home after an attempted burgularly and finding my back door and gate kicked in and open to the world.  My stomach flipped until I saw, sat very calmly in my back garden two, young, fit and healthy terriers who had not taken advantage of the unexpected opportunity for freedom.  I'd like to add that the eldest was a confirmed "bolter" and escape artist and both are happy, confident dogs.
By Moonmaiden (****) [gb] Date 23.08.05 17:34 GMT
All down to amichien ? Sorry I have no time for "brhaviourists"who claim like Ms Fennell & her cohorts to have invented an all new singing & dancing one size fits all method, when in fact everything in her books has been around for years

FYI I do not use a clicker nor a collar & lead to train my dogs, but they do of course wear collars & leads whilst off my proprty
MM \O^O/ OMG Rjj is 4 eek cool Jessie is 3 :-) Mr Wu is 1 eek eek Roodee is here ;-)
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 23.08.05 20:07 GMT
Snip "Sorry I have no time for "brhaviourists"who claim like Ms Fennell & her cohorts to have invented an all new singing & dancing one size fits all method, when in fact everything in her books has been around for years" Snip

That's my exact point, whats the point in getting yourself all aireated every single time over a claim to invention.  The world and it's uncle knows that there is no such thing as an "original thought" (excepting of course true scientific visionaries).  You're angry because of a case of the Emperors new clothes and that's fine, but to rubbish ALL of the ideas contained within her books?  I'm afraid I think that slightly daft.

No, I don't believe my own dogs behaviour is down to "amichien" because these ways of behaving and living with dogs have been going on forever.  Whether you like it or not, using variations on Fennell's methods has bought about an incredibly strong trust between myself and my dogs.  I can well imagine how annoyed you feel, I feel equally annoyed whenever I read how downtrodden my own dogs must be due to living in an environment where methods similar to Fennell's are used.  I very rarely read the same sort of viterol aimed at NILIF and the methods are v. similiar.

I also don't train using collars or lead, I use time, patience and fun as does anyone who has any real success with their dog. There are many different routes from A - D, what the heck does it matter how you get there as long as you do and all concerned have had a jolly, fun time? 

    
By Moonmaiden (****) [gb] Date 23.08.05 20:31 GMT
They are not her methods is what I am trying to say

She was on the TV telling the world of Channel 5 viewers sheshe alone had invented titbit training her words were actually"Before I started using treats, no one else had even considered it"(just replayed a video someone did for me)

Which is a bit strange as I don't think she was training dogs back in 1963 when I was first taught how to use treats in training

Just watched part of the tape of her program. She had a dog on a lead & choker ! & was using the choker to curb a dogs behaviour ! Hmmmm now thats a new original method

BTWdo you use the touch method to get your dog in the heel position ?
MM \O^O/ OMG Rjj is 4 eek cool Jessie is 3 :-) Mr Wu is 1 eek eek Roodee is here ;-)
By ceejay (***) [gb] Date 23.08.05 20:56 GMT
I started using the eat before dog routine but realised that I was doing it wrong when I reread the relevant part. I was also making my pup sit and stay until she looked at me and I said go eat.  Well I reviewed this when my dog started guarding behaviour (see puppy biting thread) and for a few days did it properly.  I was delighted when I turned to find Meg sitting patiently and she didn't move when I put her dish down. After a respectable interval I told her go eat. After 3 days I stopped the eating first and found her good behaviour well established.  I am really pleased with this. 
The other thing I took on board was not making a fuss on going in to her room first thing in the morning (she lives in the utility room) and after being out.  She settled in very quickly and makes no fuss when left in her puppy cage or when we go to bed.  Our old dog used to wake us up in the morning with an expectation of a walk and feed.  We don't do either straight away now. She does get taken out into the garden though! I make a real fuss of her after she has performed.
Third point - I think it is really good sense to make her sit and wait for attention when people meet her. She should be ignored at first. I really think what I am doing when I meet other people with dogs now. I talk to them first instead of saying what a lovely dog and fussing.  I don't mean that I ignored owners before- but it is surprising how many people do talk to the dog and do ignore the owner.   It is very difficult to stop other people pouncing on the dog when they see her.  She expects everyone to do the same now.
By Moonmaiden (****) [gb] Date 23.08.05 21:01 GMT
I've never used the methods mentioned & I have never had the problems you seem to have had, so I must be getting something right with my dogs without Ms  Fennell's help
MM \O^O/ OMG Rjj is 4 eek cool Jessie is 3 :-) Mr Wu is 1 eek eek Roodee is here ;-)
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 23.08.05 22:46 GMT
Snip "They are not her methods is what I am trying to say" snip

Absolutely agree which I thought would have been obvious by my previous post.  I have no argument in the slightest that she is obviously a successfull -self-marketer, I understand that would possibly get one's goat ... personally I couldn't care less.  But I do believe that within her first book there are some words of commonsense,  simply put and explained.  So what, if she's rehashed, rephrased etc - still don't see the point of denegrating those ideas.  The flavour one gets from these threads is not so much rubbishing the messenger but the message as well and that's simply neither fair or justified.

Snip "BTWdo you use the touch method to get your dog in the heel position ?" Snip

Well, I'm smiling now, my terriers have no idea about the heel position off lead whatsoever and certainly wouldn't thank you for putting ideas in my head.  I spent my childhood with working BC's walking to heel and performing tricks, my feeling now is that as long as I can guide mine to safety when needed, recall, stay, calm and behave themselves in public then we're doing alright.  
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 24.08.05 11:17 GMT
Ms Fennels 'ideas' im afraid do get me all aireated.

I think there is a fairly good reason for this though. Whilst people interested in dog behaviour and dog training, who are not novices, have had their interested pushed along by owning many different dogs with different needs and problems will obviously be able to extract teh common sense out of her books... Beginners, those who grew up with 'me boss you dog' alpha theories will NOT.

Telling a total beginner that 'do all these thigns and your dog will be well trained' is DANGEROUS in my opinion. Ive got at least two dogs here who would lead a miserable unfulfilled life if i trained them the way she suggests. I have one who would quite probably be so upset he would turn to aggression. That leaves one dog out of four that might react favourably to her methods.

Had her book been the first id seen, same as had Barbara Woodhouse been the first dog trainer id seen (and actually she probably was) i would be thinking her way was sensible and would work. But a lot of the time it either doesnt work or works for the wrong reasons.

For the beginner to decide, having only THAT book to go on, why something isnt working, or even harder, pick out the fact that it IS working but for the wrong reasons is incredibly hard.

So thats WHY i have a massive problem with THAT book. If it wasnt marketed as a cure all for everything, and pointed at beginners and problem dogs, id just see it as yet another in a long line of fairly standard 'not very good' books about dogs. There are thousands of them out there.

Em
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 24.08.05 13:41 GMT
Snip "Ive got at least two dogs here who would lead a miserable unfulfilled life if i trained them the way she suggests. I have one who would quite probably be so upset he would turn to aggression. That leaves one dog out of four that might react favourably to her methods." Snip

I am sincerely interested in what exactly would it be that could upset your dog to the degree that aggression would be the result?  Not being funny, just genuinely interested as many of the things she recommends I have always done myself and have not experienced either miserable, unfulfilled lives or aggression.  I regularly have other dogs visiting/staying - all very quickly settle down - no fights or arguements - no unhappiness.  Believe me when I say that if I saw evidence of miserable or unfulfilled dogs my behaviour would have continued in its evolution. 

I've read the book in question and whilst totally understanding that it would be out of line with many peoples thinking/way of life, but even after giving a fair and open reading to the numerous criticisms towards it I cannot see what exactly might lead to such distress.  
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 14:24 GMT
I too have dogs who are very emotionally sensitive - one to such an extent where if we followed JF's rank reduction methods he would lose all faith and trust in us and I believe he would become overly defensive, with the possibility of becoming aggressive.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 24.08.05 16:39 GMT
Pretty much ditto JG there.

One of mine is very very sensitive (well two are but in different ways), he is a proper coward at times, needs me but not in an 'in your face way'.

He NEEDS his methods of communication with me the way they are (and that depends on how he is feeling, somtimes he will bump me with his nose, sometimes he will bark in my face).
I strongly believe that the methods in that book would depress him terribly, and instead of being the dog i can generally trust to let me do anything i want to him (things he doesnt like, like being stripped, like lying on his back for his nails done etc etc) i think he would resort to aggression quite quickly.

Em
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 14:32 GMT
Good points Em :-)

As you say new comers to dog ownership could well use the author's "theories" as a bible - and much of her ideas IMO supress what are the main benefits, comforts and pleasures of living with our family pets. 

True, if followed to the letter from day 1 it won't necessarily be apparent that the dog is unhappy, bored, confused, lonely etc but that's simply because the dog has accepted that life is like that because he's been "put in his place" from the start :-( 

My dogs greet me coming out of the loo (the ones that didn't skip in with me that is :P ) as enthusiastically as they do if I've left them for three hours to go shopping.  I don't want to ignore them and I would be devastated if they ignored me!  I feed them when it's due time for one of their two meals a day - whether it's before during or after out food matters not.  They jump on the furniture, sit on our laps (and they're not a small breed LOL), share tv snacks, sometimes shuffle us along so they have more space than us and they sleep on our bed - never been a need at any time in their lives to "put them in their place" or "demote"  them or establish "pack leader" blah, blah, blah.  Basically happy, well adjusted dogs that have owners who trained them without having to try and get "inside their heads" but also recognised that each has a different personality and what suits one does not suit all - yet another thing not taken into account by this author.    regards, Teri :-)
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 14:42 GMT
Your dogs sound much like mine, Teri - and I've never followed any of those 'essential rules' either.
:-)
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 14:46 GMT
Great!!!!! so you wanna watch mine while I go a holiday - you'll scarcely notice the difference :D
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By digger (***) [gb] Date 24.08.05 14:56 GMT
I sometimes wonder if 'Amichien Bonding' would actually be more useful when dealing with human teenagers than dogs - ignore them when you come in, after all, they ignore you, eat first (because if you don't, there won't be any food left), make them follow you through doorways (because they'll only fart and leave you gasping for breath.....) and definatly don't allow them on the settee, or you'll NEVER find a space to sit!
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 15:02 GMT
LOL @ Digger - sounds about the best (only) use for it ;-)
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 24.08.05 15:28 GMT
Snip "True, if followed to the letter from day 1 it won't necessarily be apparent that the dog is unhappy, bored, confused, lonely etc but that's simply because the dog has accepted that life is like that because he's been "put in his place" from the start "snip

snip "I too have dogs who are very emotionally sensitive - one to such an extent where if we followed JF's rank reduction methods he would lose all faith and trust in us and I believe he would become overly defensive, with the possibility of becoming aggressive" snip

Ahhhhh!  Now I completely understand, forgive my stupidity ....

Obviously it is both my dogs and my own "insensitivity" combined with my own general thick headedness and lacsidaisical attitude which firstly, is the reason that they haven't felt the need to resort to violence and secondly why I've not noticed their general maliase, unhappiness and boredom. 

I have eventually seen the light and hopefully will be able to post shortly with the happy news that my dogs rushed to welcome me back gleefully from a 3 minute visit to the loo.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 15:35 GMT

>hopefully will be able to post shortly with the happy news that my dogs rushed to welcome me back gleefully from a 3 minute visit to the loo.


Yes, I hope so too! :D
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 24.08.05 15:50 GMT
Oh get overself and dismount that high horse.  The responsibility of being right is far too much for one person's shoulders to continually bear.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 15:58 GMT
Pots and kettles ... ;-)

I'm sorry that your dogs don't appear to give two hoots whether you're there or not. :-(
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Moonmaiden (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 16:00 GMT
:rolleyes: ;-)
MM \O^O/ OMG Rjj is 4 eek cool Jessie is 3 :-) Mr Wu is 1 eek eek Roodee is here ;-)
By Utonagan [gb] Date 28.08.05 21:28 GMT
.
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 16:37 GMT
Well now you mention it, how do you know that your dogs wouldn't have a different attitude and generally more obvious joie de vivre if you've only ever raised them using amichien? (somehow the word "bonding" doesn't IMO seem compatible with that practice) confused   If that has been your personal bible, presumably there's been no opportunity to make a comparison ...............

Perhaps you have no desire to have a similar relationship with your dogs to those of us who use positive reward and basic common sense to train - I am not criticising or judging you for that.  However I find with my own dogs that not striving to *reduce their status* but celebrating their individual personalities rather than supressing them has allowed our family pets and ourselves to live in total harmony and, more importantly, complete enjoyment of one another. 

Regards, Teri :-)
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By theemx (***) [gb] Date 24.08.05 16:46 GMT
I have never had ANY need to 'reduce' any kind of status with my dogs and me.

Between themselves they all know where they stand whtever the situation, with me, ditto.

I have one dog here (actually this probably counts for all of them) who you would throw your hands up in HORROR at what i accept from her.

If she is sitting in my chair, and i ask her to move too forcefully or a take her collar, she will sometimes grr or mouth my wrist. OH NO vicious dog, hell bent on domination.

No.

Sensitive and very very nervous dog, who has spent 9 years being walloped and kicked and still forgets and expects it occasionally. She is simply warning me that she feels frightened. I back off slightly and she does as she is asked.

To use JF's 'methods' on this dog would be counter productive. Yeah, she might be a nice quiet dog who never does anything wrong. But then she would be a nice quiet dog that never did ANYTHING at all!

Personally, id rather have my bouncy happy dog who is not scared to greet me when i come home (as she was in her previous home), who will come and ask me if she wants out or food, will warn me if im abotu to sit on her, etc etc. She TRUSTS me, and she respects me and because of that id rather forgve the occasional slip up adn a grr or a mouth than go about trying to 'demote' her and risk putting her back to square one.

And yep, my dogs come to the toilet with me sometimes, greet me when i come back, etc etc. This is what they do, the are DOGS after all, not furry little robots, or dog shaped teddies or people in dog suits!

Em
By cooperscrossing (*) [gb] Date 24.08.05 17:59 GMT
Snip "Well now you mention it, how do you know that your dogs wouldn't have a different attitude and generally more obvious joie de vivre if you've only ever raised them using amichien? (somehow the word "bonding" doesn't IMO seem compatible with that practice)    If that has been your personal bible, presumably there's been no opportunity to make a comparison ..............." Snip.

Nowhere in any of my post have I stated that this is my personal bible (only that similiar methods involving mealtimes etc are used).  How can you make judgements on my dogs lack of "joie de vivre"?  Especially when it's been a point of compliment in judge's critiques, by people in my breed whom I respect and in everyday life.  People are free to interpret in any way they choose and it is my choice to react or not to it, so I do feel slightly embarassed at my comments directed at posts earlier this afternoon, they were childlike and silly, but not once have I presumed that other peoples dogs were less happy or more insecure than my own. 

These are judgement calls that we all, I'm sure, make on our own behalf everyday.  I freely admit that I often make huge errors of handling but there is one thing of which I'm rightly proud and that's the full of fun, confident and jolly  dogs which share my life and home, however much that is doubted or ridiculed by others.  
By Teri (****) [gb] Date 24.08.05 18:11 GMT

>How can you make judgements on my dogs lack of "joie de vivre"?


confused I didn't!  I asked how would you know if they'd behave differently if you hadn't used another method.   I also stated quite clearly:

> I am not criticising or judging you


You chose to make sarcastic remarks about a post that I made agreeing with someone else - at the end of the day you favour a method of training, raising, living with your dogs, in part at any rate, that I don't.  Nothing you say will make me change how I live with my dogs nor do I imagine that anything I say will have a lifechanging affect on you ;-)

> These are judgement calls that we all, I'm sure, make on our own behalf everyday


I agree - and we make our judgements based on different criteria, beliefs, experiences and skills.  However, the topic by virtue of it's title queries the method of "Amichien Bonding?" and, unlike you, I see no value in it whatsoever and think that if followed to the letter by a total novice dog owner it is likely to be counter productive towards a good relationship and bond built out of trust and mutual respect.   My opinion, pure and simple.  Regards, Teri :-) 
'Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers' (Voltaire)
By becks (*) [gb] Date 24.08.05 03:30 GMT
The ideas have certainly been around for years, I've never even read this Ms Fennell person. I was reading John Fisher and others ages ago.
By Spender (***) [gb] Date 24.08.05 12:49 GMT
My OH has read Jan Fennell's books, I won't type what he said about it on here but it wasn't favorable. 

Jean Donaldson is one of the best authors I have come across in a long time. 

As for Amichien Bonding, Mmmm.... Nuff said.   I do a lot of ignoring though, especially when I'm whined at for food. Lol.  Is that Amichien Bonding?   Nahh.....:-D
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