Holly is a bit under the weather at the moment and has started growling at the children when they go near her. I've told them to leave her alone but being children they soon forget.

My query is - who should I tell of first? Who should be removed - the children or Holly?

Thanks Fiona

Holly has only started growling since she's been poorly - normally they get on really well

Hi fiona, I have 5 very small grandchildren at first Zac would chase them all over the place, but now
because I tell both the children and Zac off he is very good and will go to another part of the room
if he is feed up with Henry giving him a sly smack.But as soon as food is about he is like larry the lamb with them .

you know your kids best, are they likley to torment her, if so then it needs watching- however if holly is growling because she feels a bit under the weather, im sorry but i wouldnt accept that, it would be something id veiw as very serious, sorry,

I am glad you said it first Dizzy.
A young pup should not be aloud to start this behaviour full stop.
Even if she is not feeling well it is still learned behaviour and at her age she will think thats the way to go I can get away with this and may carry on even when she feels well again.

I'm well aware that Holly's behaviour is not acceptable. If I wasn't concerned I wouldn't have posted in the first place :D

Holly only growls when she's lying down trying to sleep and the children prod her and poke her to try to get her to play with them. At the moment Holly is lying on her blanket chewing her favourite toy and Issy has just taken it from her, without a grumble from Holly at all.

So I'll ask again - how do I deal with this? Do I tell Holly off first or the children? Do I remove Holly from the situation or the kids?

Thanks,

Fiona

im sorry i must of misunderstood , but your first mail suggested she was under the weather and was growling if the children went near her-you never mentioned the children poking and prodding, im confused so ill stay out of it, good luck

I also send my apologies.
I to thought you ment that she was just growling at the children.

Sorry Linda, my fault entirely. I was in a hurry and trying to type it before Issy got really angry in her cot. She started crying whilst I was typing and I was desperate to get it finished before she got too upset.

That'll teach me to try and do something for myself whilst she's asleep!! :D

Fiona
xxx

Hi Fiona,
You're in a bind. Theoretically a dog should never growl at children..bad practise and all that. But your dog is trying to tell your children that she doesn't want to play or be disturbed. Basically the children are instigating the situation and she is reacting as well as she can, doggy style.

So, instead of making her defend herself in this manner, you perhaps might keep an eye out on her energy level & mood....step in before the growling happens. She probably has some sort of sign that she gives before growling. You probably can tell when she has enough interaction, just like a regular child.

Don't allow the situation to get out of hand so that Holly gets in trouble all of the time. Tell the kids to leave her alone when she wants to rest & relax. She should have that right and she won't start associating your kids with her bad moods.

I know this will be difficult. Kids are persistant. When I was around 5, I kept picking on my mother's collie when he wanted to rest & relax. He was so goodnatured about it, but I kept pulling his tail because I liked watching him snap around. Now I realize, I was hurting him, but I saw it as fun to play with his tail like that.

It really sobered me up when my mom bluntly told me that it would be really sad that if Trev had to die because he bit me after I pulled his tail. She was cold about it and said that life wasn't fair to dogs, but if he bit me, she would never be able to trust him again. Even at five, that sunk in hard.

Good luck with Holly.
Toodles

Fiona it depends imo. I would tell the children off but not in front of the dog in case she got from it that she was ok to growl. I would scruff holly and put her out everytime she growled . I hate to do that truly but I would be taking the long view . A little tough love . . I would most certainly take the opportunity to ask that mutual aquaintance of ours about this . Mari

I agree with you, Mari. Not having a dog yet - I, at first glance at this question, thought that the kids should be told not to bother the dog. Period. End of story. But I've learned a lot reading all these posts, and I see that the growling is growling is growling. Of course, the kids should leave the dog alone, but the top priority is the growling.

Butter

I agree Marie. If the children can't be trusted to remember not to touch the puppy when she's sleeping, then Holly should be in a safe and secure place where she can sleep in peace. Dogs and children must be taught to respect each other to avoid problems in the future.

If you start scruffing a dog every time it growls then you are running the risk of depriving the dog of one of it's first methods of communicating it has a problem - I've now homed two dogs who do not appear to realise that a growl can be acted on and go straight to a full blown snap - surely this is not what we want this dog to learn?

Fiona, can you confirm that we are talking about the same 'Holly' that bit a child recently? What was the outcome of that case or are you still waiting to hear

'Fraid so Leigh. The situation with the other child has been resolved in that there was an incident with a GSD at the weekend and the child fell into the lake. The child was out with her granny,again, and wasn't under control. The mother has accepted that her child was at fault in both incidents. She ran up to a GSD that was 'being busy' by a bush this weekend and got snapped at and chased into the lake.

The general feeling of my 'tame' police dog handler is that Holly hasn't been taught enough manners yet and needs to learn some good manners very quickly. He feels that part of the problem is that Holly didn't get the socialisation she needed between 8 and 12 wks and a lot of her reactions are fear based. We got her at 12wks and have done a lot with her in the last 7wks but she's still got a lot to learn.

She's really good with me and Chris and is very good with our children, most of the time. We've taken Holly's floor blanket away from her tonight so if she wants to sleep anywhere she has to sleep in her crate - the children don't go in there at all.

Fiona

sorry, maybe I am getting the wrong end of the plot here, as I appear to be the only one saying this, but if some little brat (oops sorry, "child") was poking & prodding my sick dog, then it would be me that snapped first, long before the dog! What on earth is the parent of this/these child/children thinking of, letting a child torment a sick dog? For goodness sake get the child to leave the dog alone. You can worry aboot the growling once its over its illness.

No, you're not the only one Sam. Look above. I was just trying to be diplomatic!

Sam, you're way out of line. Fiona has been posting on this board for quite some time now and she deserves a bit more respect and consideration than that. She is asking for advice and support, and your reply was clearly not supportive! I believe others have given similar advice, but in a much less offensive tone.

Fiona ,Please come back you seem really down,When I first got Zac he would snap at the children
but at a young age the pup did not know any better but a few stern words to both and they now get on like a house on fire, And the children are all around 3 years and down wards .If sick was sick I would have kept him in a different room .

I strongly resent you referring to my children as 'brats'. I posted on this website looking for advice, I won't bother in future and I won't be back.

Fiona

Fiona you have made some friends here,please dont be put off,I for one have been offended By some peoples attitude to people they are blunt to the point of insulting you are a kind person and a good mum to your child and Holly I know this please reconsider we are not all unfeeling on here,mutual respect is what is wanted here between children and dogs and vice versa and can we all be more polite to people,!!!! Can we also remember that some of us have suffered personal sadness and dont deserve this abrupt tone

Fiona,
posting this in the hope you do come back. I can well understand why you feel so hurt. I would react in the same way if I was spoken to about my children in this way. Wonder how some people would react if we spoke about their dogs in such a rude manner. It seems to me that you have your hands very full with small children and a puppy who missed out on important early socialisation. It also seems to me that you are putting a lot of work into settling the little dog into your family and following all the (good) advice you have been given. I wish you all the best and hope things turn out OK.
Jackie

Come on Fi, don't leave us :D Quinn and I will protect you!!!

Fiona. Any of us who have owned a number of dogs over the years have at sometime had some kind of a problem. If we haven’t then we have been very lucky indeed. We know what you are going through. To just be able to talk amongst friends here on the board helps to gain a perspective. Please don’t go. This is the time you need friends and we are here for you. Occasionally people speak without thinking and in that I'm as bad if not worse than most. We wound and we hurt but it is never intentional. Please stay with us.

My love to you, John

Fiona- look at all these messages of support for you ! You have friends on here so please don't let one tactless post stop you from coming back.
Sara

Fiona,

Don't go.
I have 2 dogs and a young child and know how hard it can be with kids and dogs and trying to have kids respect the dog/s and vice versa.

Karen

Fiona don't leave
there are so many people want you to stay some of the remarks do offend & I think some people write & post before they have read what they have said or the context is not right.
We all now you love & care a lot for your dog & CHILDREN
karl

I have emailed Fiona privately in case she doesn't read this, but as I said to her, I was not referring specifically to her children, rather, just making the point that children in general should not be allowed to tease dogs......especially a sick one! I feel most strongly that the children should be told off in this instance. I have apologised to her for the way my posting must have sounded, I certainly do not want to upset Fiona in the way I seem to have done.:o

That's the way I read your post Sam. You said "but if some little brat (oops sorry, "child") was poking & prodding my sick dog" you didn't say YOUR CHILD.
We're all the same. You can criticize ME all you like Sam. But if I THOUGHT you were criticizing my daughter, I'd fly for your throat!!!
I think that Fiona is going through a rough time at the moment. I've left a message of concern for her elsewhere. Public boards aren't the best place to be when we're feeling low.
For what it's worth, Sam I also don't think that any puppy in training should be expected to tolerate any children poking and prodding at any time but particularly when it doesn't feel well.

Sam Fiona is not one to hold grudges . she is a very warm person , I think this week is the hardest for her , as saturday is the birthday of her beloved daughter imogen who died on her from cot death . Her heart is broken and she is very fragile at the moment . I think she will be ok again now that you have made your feelings clearer . I dont think you meant insult to her or her children but Sam we all need to stop and think about who is behind the poster . I have been guilty of that same way of putting things when I started posting as if I was talking to a wall or something untill one day I found I actually wounded,Ithink it was thistle. . I felt bad I can tell you . so now unless I am really angry at someones treatment of others I try to remember this is a person not a post . no matter how many advise you address the post . you still have to remember a person is writing it . I can only speak for myself here Sam but I do think there is no person without some grief and troubles so we should all take more care of how we answer each other. then we wont have to feel guilty . I wish you all the best Sam . and I hope you take this the way it is meant . MARI

Well said Mari,I echo that completely.The loss of a beloved child must be the worst ever thing for anyone to deal with,lets consider peoples feeling here and try harder

Mari
I have "spoken" to Fiona privately (by email) & I think things are ok now, Thanks
Sam

No think about it, Sam - things are ok.

Regards,

Fiona

Welcome back Fi!

I know it can be hard with young children and dogs sometimes. My marriage broke down when I was expecting my 2nd child and my older one was only 3. I had a very active hyper bitch who needed a lot of excersise, she was 2.

Then she sadly died 18 months later, and I got my first Elkhound pup, with a 14 month old toddler and a 5 year old child. I had planned on having an adult bitch if I could locate one, but fate decreed that a puppy bitch was available, and I knew I could do it though it would be hard.

I was very lucky that my breeder did not dimiss me out of hand as a potential puppyu owner.

When I had the Belgian my daughter was only a year old, and this was a sensitive bitch, who sometimes found children overwhelming, so I watched and would send her upstairs out of the way, so she learnt to rely on me to protect her, and would sit by me to wait for me to let her go and get some peace!

Mari
Bless you for remembering you upset me. It makes all the difference if people say sorry.
Jane

Hi thistle how are you I always believe if you say something rotten have the guts to apologise, I did apologise at the time but I still felt bad . thank you for acknowledging . I realise now as I am sure so do many more that , we are actually responding to a flesh and blood person, not a post .
Sam well done you too. by the way Sam I thought you were a male . when all your posts referred to you being a farmer for some unknown reason {mental block } I did not see female . best wishes Mari

Fiona please don't go! Look at all the support you've got!

Having read the bit about removing Holly's blanket from the lounge I think that is the way to go. When our current dog was growling at my son, as well as the treat advice when things were OK, I was told to remove him from the lounge, because he would warn growl when my son wasn't even touching him. My son would be playing away and if he got within 2 feet of Dollar he would start to low rumble growl, even though my son was totally oblivious to the dog. Now I must admit I was probably not as firm as I should of been but one day it escalated from a growl to a near miss snap, well I shouted OUT and pointed to the door, and he went. So then I started to do it, not so loudly, whenever Dollar started to look uncomfortable, sort of thinking for him. In return my son was not allowed to play, make strange noises anywhere near Dollar's bed. Dollar eventually learned that if he didn't like it he had somewhere else to go.

At the risk of repeating myself - DON'T GO:D

Anita

Fiona,
Don't leave, I'd miss you
toodles

At the end of the day my main interest is a child any child . I only expect the best from my dogs I wont accept anything less . we are all forgetting here that both children and dog are babies and are all learning. Holly has been a bit growly on fiona well before she swallowed a bit of something, and is communicating she is not happy with the kids all the time . she has to learn to be happy and trusted with the kids all the time. She was got as a family pet . I just worry about a cocker as they can be iffy with children.I know Fiona would break her heart if it did not work out as she waited so long for a puppy . She is needing advice so she is asking for your input on how to handle Holly . Holly has reacted to another child that would not let her alone and snapped at her drawing a little blood . I feel most puppies are good natured and loving . my Berry lives for my little grandson kalem and plays as long as she is allowed to . she never mouths or pulls at him he is only 17 mths and the bond is something else to see. I would not tolerate Kalem hurting berry but I would not tolerate Berry hurting Kalem . sorry but that is just how I see it . best wishes Mari

Fiona,
(Hope you're still here to read this!)
I have to say I agree with Digger.....Holly is letting your children know the only way she knows how (with a growl) that she wasn't happy at that moment and wanted some peace. Remember the saying 'Let sleeping dogs lie'??
Children and dogs can be a happy combination but, it takes respect on both sides. I was a Registered Childminder for 11 yrs and had different dogs through my minding years from a Dobermann, to a BC, then ending up with 3 GSD's. Not once were the children or my dogs in a position where they would have had to have deffended (for want of a better word) themselves.
Maybe Holly had already 'asked' your children to leave her alone by getting up and moving away from them, which is what most dogs raised with children will do first. If they've ignored her (and I can't be sure 'coz obviously I wasn't there) and carried on pestering then her next line of defense is a growl. Can you see where I'm going with this?.....if a growl doesn't work, her next line will be a snap or a bite!! Please remember that in a pack/litter of dogs, this is normal behaviour....please also don't think that I think it's right for dogs to growl at children, it's not but, I do hate to hear of dogs ending up rehomed or worse PTS because of something that with a bit of precaution could have been prevented.
That's why I agree with Digger, you obviously don't want her to think it's ok to growl at children but then again, you don't want her to go to the next line of deffense (a snap or bite) by scuffing her when she growls! It's your job as 'pack mommy' to stop the children before Holly decides too do the job herself. I'm presuming that neither are ever left alone together so you will be able to recognise the signs that Holly has had enough. When you see it, put her away somewhere that she can rest peacefully....personally I prefer crates because should your children 'forget' again, Holly and kids will be safe.
I agree that Holly has to learn to trust and respect children, that though (IMO) is only going to happen if the children around her or that she encounters elsewhere respect her too....Like I said first, hope you're still here to read this!

Fiona:

Please don't leave. We all need to stick together. I for one have no clue what should be done. I thought the kids were the ones to bwe warned, then I thought the dog should be warned, now I think the kids should be warned. I have no idea. Without each other we have less value as a group of knowledge and experiences. Obviously your kids were just kids being kids. They don't understand and weren't being mean.

Butter

come on fiona- youve been brave telling us all hollies done so far, -dont let one posting put you off coming on the board, i know how much it hurts when folk have a go at our kids but please dont take it to heart, youve made many friends on the board,
as for advice, -id have holly caged when you arent around to supervise her with the kids, then when youve got the time to watch them interact let her out with them, that way neither can cause a problem for the other, youd be able to see how shes going on with them-then when shes tired or the kids are going to be left for a while pop her back in her cage, :D

<I just worry about a cocker as they can be iffy with children>

Sorry Mari - I'm afraid I can't agree with you here Any dog has the potential to be "iffy" with children - it's not fair to make blanket comments on a breed like this. As with any numerically popular breed, you will of course hear of poor temperaments (we all know that often puppies in such breeds come from less than responsible breeders) but it is not true that Cockers generally are "iffy" with children. I think the saying "blame the deed not the breed" is very apt There are all sorts of reasons why any dog becomes unreliable with children ranging from poor breeding, inadequate socialisation & faulty training - these can apply to any breed or cross-breed for that matter. You are going to get more people posting about problems with the popular breeds by the law of averages - we don't hear about the thousands of people who have no problems with these breeds for obvious reasons.

Yes of course you are right that Holly must learn to be happy around the children but does that really mean that she must accept everything the children choose to do to her? I know that times have changed but I certainly had it rammed home to me as a very young child that I was not allowed to wake our dog up when it was sleeping & I was not allowed to poke/prod/tease. Of course problems can arise when children are just too young to understand which is why many breeders are increasingly reluctant to sell pups to families with babies/young children - if things go wrong, the dog always gets the blame it seems. I have certainly sold Cocker puppies to homes with very young children in the past without any problems, but I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that those breeders who won't sell to homes with babies/toddlers may have a point

This is not a criticism of Fiona (if she's still here) - I know she is trying very hard & has a lot on her plate with such a young family.

Jane

jane , perhaps weve just been unlucky on this board but theres been a few postings about cockers biting children-i m sure mari wasnt meaning well bred and happy puppys but there are a few causing problems at the minute,

Jane I meant no offence to you, I have heard you advise and worry for your breed and I also know you breed for temperment . I was just speaking from my own experience of one my mother had and the few I have read about on this board . I know there are tons of good ones . I was just hoping Holly was not one of the bad ones, I guess on reflection I should have used my words more tactfully . I dont mean to slate anyone or their breed that is not my way at all. I am a bit upset for Fiona right now . I know what she is going through at the moment .
I just dont think Holly is working out for her and the children and I feel for her deeply . best wishes Mari

It's ok Mari - no offence taken! I guess we all tend to be defensive of our beloved breeds don't we? I think the reason we have a few posters having problems with Cockers is as I've said before - the sheer number of people who choose this breed as a family pet without too much experience of dogs in general or Cockers in particular. These comments aren't aimed at anyone in particular but I get a large number of puppy enquiries every day & many of them are from first-time dog owners with very small children. It's hard enough looking after several under-fives without adding a demanding, lively puppy to the equation & when you also think that many of these would-be owners have little knowledge of dog behaviour & training, it's easy to see how problems can arise. Admittedly, there are Cockers with inherent temperament problems who should not be in homes with children but I still believe that in most cases, problems arise due to lack of experience & sometimes lack of common sense on the part of the owners. Again this is not aimed at Fiona - she is doing her best but possibly has a bit too much to cope with at the moment

Jane

People say that border collies can be a bit iffy with children, but I grew up with one who was brilliant, suffered all the stuff I did with/to her as a child with great grace and composure. Our current BC was a rescue dog and so we were a bit dubious, but she is fantastic with kids, really loves them and when she's had enough she takes herself and hides under our bed.

I agree with you Jane. A lot of it depends on the way that they are brought up and not on the breed.

Loki just adores kids too. Whenever she sees one, her back end starts bouncing like Tigger.

Fiona, thank you for your reply.

I am pleased that events seem to have turned in yours and Holly's favour

Having read with interest, all your posts about Holly, I would have to agree with the police handler from what you have said. I think that you should change the word 'tame' for friendly, as I for one find that term demeaning. If you still have contact with this officer, and he/she has the time and the inclination to help you, I would recommend that you acept any advice that he/she offers

Holly may not have had a lot of socialisation between 8 and 12 weeks but you and Chris have had the opportunity to start to redress that balance. I know that this will take time and effort, but you should have started to make some headway by now

I too, think that ALL children should be kept away from unwell or sleeping dogs. Allowing a child/children to torment and harass a dog in these circumstances, or any other circumstances come to that, is asking for trouble

So yes, I would tell my children off and protect my dogs from being harassed, but I would also let my dog know that even if it is ill, I will not tolerate any form of aggression towards children at all. I would also never ever leave young children alone with any dog.

Has Holly only been ill since eating the 'toy'?
If she has then I would be inclined to seek veterinary help immediately.

Have another word with the friendly police officer Fiona

Leigh

PS, may I take this opportunity to congratulate you and wish you the best of luck with your new role as a moderator on another forum. I hope you have lots of fun and that your 'thick skin' protects you from the abuse that will undoubtably come your way

Hope I'm reading this right and that Fiona is back with us. Is she now a moderator or am I misunderstanding this posting ?
Welcome back Fiona, Holly and family.