Hopefully this will be a normal sized box. My eyes are gettting really messed up reading the narrow columns.... call it genetic inheritance from parents, grandparents, & great grandparents to give the blessing of being the fourth generation to wear glasses. :D
Avaunt, since you have clearly stated that you have never been involved in breeding & its arena, all you are stating repeatedly is theory. Basically it sounds as if your hobby is dealing with the concept of Eugenics..in dogs & not humans this time around. Remember, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing :rolleyes:
Repeating something a vet said to you in 1970 is very old & does appear to be unsubstantiated. Just because he bred Chows, doesn't mean that he knew first hand what he was talking about. Were you able to confirm his story by another means --newspaper report, book, other breeders? Does it really matter today?
I live in Germany. I see people breeding their GSDs & Dobies just like other pet owners in the US & UK.... they have a pretty dog & think its best for a bitch to have pups, or they want to make money. Perhaps those Germans that you know are extra special & have perfect motives for proper breeding, but there are many Germans outside of your acquaintance. You shouldn't presume to put the entire dog owning population on a pedestal and hold them in superior status than your own British citizenry. You keep insulting British breeders and their dogs, even down to individuals on this board. Shame on you. That's not very polite to do.
John, Good to hear from you again..... Hemophilia in Dogs??????? I didn't know there was such a thing. Don't vanish again or I'll send you harrassing emails :D :D :D
toodles
By avaunt ![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 27.04.02 17:43 GMT
Eugiana
Its true to some extent the German breeders I have anything to do with put everything into their dogs BUT<<
There is only ONE pedigree recognised in Europe as an authentic German pedigree and that pedigree is endorsed by Dobermann Verin, the German breed club. It is the equivalent of UK kennel club registration.
On top of that all breeders and owners, as standard, attempt the ZTP breeding licence test, no one, would seriously buy a dog without it.
The pedigree authenticates the dog but the licence is proof the dog has been tested to a standard that makes it fit for breeding to DV standards, which are VERY strict You can check with the DV as you are there the number is, 89 123 4224.
No one I have come across in Germany breeding Dobes (although I go to breeders who make the Sch/working, health and the mix priority over showing, they do not show, they go for international working champs) would even contemplate having breeding from a dog which had not entered and passed its ZTP test.
Have you actually asked the people there with Dobes about this?
Yes of course they live like part of the family, so do mine and everyone else I know keep them like that, you seem to equate a dog that has high scores at tracking as a dog which is tied out day and night or some idea peculiar to you.
Do dogs get Haemophilia? I did not know that either.
Below is pasted the Dobermann Verin (German Breed Club) ZTP breeding licence test.
Just one other thing, over there the national kennel club has no say in anything, it is the breed club which licences judges and the national dog club must apply to the breed club to licence judges.
________________________________________
DOBERMANN ZTP
The meaning and purpose of the ZTP is to ascertain those Dobermanns which are - according to the breeding goal (breed standard) - suitable for breeding, and to eliminate unsuitable dogs from the breeding program. ZTP's can only be judged by breed judges. The judge and the helper shall be named by the test giving club's official committee. ZTP's can only be held, if authorization from DV has been given and the event has been published and deadlines have been adhered to. Additionally, ZTP's should only be held if there are at least 10 dogs expected to participate. The maximum number of dogs to be judged in any one day shall be 20. ZTP test-date applications to DV must include the name and address of the test giving club, as well as the name of the ZTP test chairperson, the name of the judge, and the deadline for entries. The exact location and start time of the ZTP test shall also be included. ZTP's are independent events. They cannot be held in conjunction with conformation shows or Schutzhund trials. The ZTP can only be carried out, if on the day of the test, the judge is presented with at least 8 dogs, and if the test location is deemed suitable for the test. The ZTP judge shall be responsible for determining the suitability of the test location. All Dobermanns which have been bred according to the breeding requirements of the DV and have been properly x-rayed for hip-displaysia, can participate in the ZTP. The results of the x-rays have to be submitted on the day of the test. Furthermore there has to be a successful test of obedience (BH). Foreign bred Dobermanns, whose owners have their permanent residence in Germany, have to have proper transfer papers. Foreign bred Dobermanns can participate in any ZTP, as long as all DV requirements have been met. The minimum age for dogs participating in a ZTP is 14 months. Dogs which have been "Held-Back" (did not pass) at an earlier ZTP, can only be re-entered once their waiting period has expired. Dogs which do not pass the ZTP the second time they are judged, cannot be entered again. The test chairperson checks the required documents and prepares the test papers. S/He is also responsible for the uninterrupted completion of the entire test, as well as the availability of all equipment necessary for the test. A suitable Schutzhund helper has to be available.!! There has to be an insurance for this test. All dogs in the testing location have to be kept so as not to disturb the testing in any way. Prong collars are not permitted on dogs, during any part of the test.
TEST PROCEDURE
1. Examination for the Conformation Ratings
2. Temperament Testing
Reasons for elimination of a dog are further discussed later in this writing. Aggressive, Shy or fearful dogs shall be excluded from breeding.
3. Determination and Announcement of ZTP Ratings
If the ZTP is held the day before a conformation show with the same judge, and the same dog is entered in both ZTP and conformation show, then the ZTP rating will be announced the day of the conformation show. Dogs will be judged first, followed by bitches. The observations of the judge shall be entered in the ZTP papers and signed by the test chairperson. The decisions of the judge and his conformation and temperament ratings are indisputable. Objections regarding formal errors must be brought to the test chairperson's attention on the day of the test. If a resolution cannot be achieved, the matter is to be presented to the officers of the DV for a decision. The ZTP rating is applicable for the duration of the dog's breeding age, unless revoked by a DV committee, because of newly discovered or earlier concealed genetic faults. This revocation of a ZTP rating must be made in writing to the owner via a registered letter. No dogs owned by the judge or his immediate family can participate in a test judged by him. After conclusion of the test, it's results are to be given to each dog's owner, co-owner or handler. A duplicate has to be sent to DV within 3 days following the test. Another duplicate shall be given or sent to the officiating judge. All financial matters shall be settled immediately.
JUDGING RULES AND PERFORMANCE REGULATIONS
Prior to the start of the ZTP, the judge briefly explains to all competitors the meaning and purpose of the test, and the exercises involved. At the start of testing the competitor and his dog report to the judge. The test chairperson checks the authenticity of the dog's pedigree with the use of the dog's tattoo. In a conversation with the handler the judge informs himself about the training, care and possible changes in ownership of the dog presented to him. The conformation evaluation is done according to the guidelines set forth by the governing club, its rules and regulations and breed standard. Special attention should be paid to faults which would affect working ability, such as a weak muzzle, long weak back, faults of front and rear legs as well as bad movement. !! Deviation in body dimensions by more than 2 cm have to be judged by reduction of conformation ratings. Greater deviations are leading to exclusion of breeding. Dogs with faults of their dentition - such as less than 42 teeth, deviations in the tooth pattern, or overshot/undershot bites, are to be deemed unsuitable for breeding purposes. The behavior of the dog during the examination of the mouth is to be specially noted, as it may be serve as an indication for certain temperament problems.
Minimum Rating Required for Males: Very Good
Minimum Rating Required for Females: Good
After the conformation evaluation the judge will instruct the handler to lead his dog in different directions over the testing area for a duration of about 300 paces, with the dog's leash being held loosely. During this walk, the dog/handler team has to encounter 4 to 6 persons who are either moving or stationary. After this, those 4 to 6 persons will form a group. The group formation should not be in any particular stiff and rigid pattern. Here the judge is encouraged to vary the proceedings, in as much as he orders the movement of the group towards the handler with his dog, or the movement of the handler/dog team in the group. During the stop in the group, it is important to create situations which are as natural as possible, such as they occur in day to day life (i.e. meeting a stranger by shaking his hand, dropping of items, opening of an umbrella, etc.). During above said exercise it is particularly important not to show any threat towards the dog. It shall strictly be used to evaluate the dog's self-confidence, fearlessness, temperament, obedience and threshold of stimulation.After this the judge orders the handler and his dog to the previously determined tie out location, where the handler ties up the dog without the use of obedience commands such as "Down" or "Platz", and goes out of sight of his dog. During the time the dog and handler are walking to the tie out location, two gunshots shall be discharged from a distance of about 15 paces, using 6mmammunition.Gun-shy dogs are unsuitable for breeding; gun-sensitivity is to be strictly distinguished from gun-shyness.
The tie-out location is to be freely accessible from all sides (i.e. away from walls, fences, etc.).
!! The dog has to be left alone for about 5 min. The judge shall approach the dog from a distance of about 5 to 8 steps, and either pass him or walk around him at a distance of approximately 2 to 3 steps, without threatening him in any way.
!! He stops in front or beside the dog, drops an exercise book or something similar. The behavior of the dog in the absence of it's handler is to be specially observed. After this, the handler shall return to his dog and take him out of the testing area. At the direction of the judge the helper shall proceed to the hiding place.
Part 1.
The judge will direct the handler to walk his dog into a specific direction. The dog shall be on leash.> At the direction of the judge, the helper will now come out of the hiding place and attack the handler and dog from the front. The dog should show his protective instincts and protect his handler. The helper starts threatening the dog only after he has engaged in the fight. During the fight the dog will be threatened verbally and physically, but does not receive any stick-hits. Upon order from the judge, the helper stops the attack.
Part 2.
The helper now turns away, and starts running a distance of about 50 paces. The handler holds the dog by his collar only, first shouting at the helper to> stop, then sending the dog. The helper flees first, but at the direction of the judge turns and attacks the dog, when he has gotten as close as approximately 8 to 10 steps. The helper tries to threaten the dog again, however even here there shall be no stick-hits used.
The handler may, at his discretion encourage the dog verbally. Upon order from the judge, the helper shall stop the attack. The handler shall return to the dog, place him back on leash, and report back to the judge.
Notes for Part 1:
It is very important that the helper wears a protective suit consisting of pants and jacket. The stick used for threatening, shall not be too bendable. The helper must be carry insurance for this test-work. The hiding place shall definitely be variable so that no pattern training of local club dogs can be done. Cars, corners or recesses of walls or tree/shrub groups can be selected for
this purpose. The helper can only work upon order from the judge, in other words, the attack and the end-position are determined by the judge. The attack will always be done towards the front of the handler, not the dog. If the dog engages in the fight, the helper will turn to the dog and threaten him verbally and physically. The stick can be used only as a threat, but never to actually hit the dog. The dog is allowed to bite the helper in locations other than the arm.
Notes for Part 2:
The helper must absolutely go to about 50 paces distance. The judge will instruct the helper, as to when to launch the attack on the dog, at which time the helper must threaten the dog verbally and physically. The stick will again be used as threat only.
CHARACTER CLASSIFICATION
There are four possible classifications:
1A
1B
Held-Back
Unsuitable for Breeding
1A
Dogs which are overall correct. A "1A" can only be awarded to a dog which gives a completely sure and correct impression in the static as well as the fighting periods of the test.
1B
Dogs which are overall sufficient. A "1B" will be awarded to a dog which performs acceptable in the static periods of the test and which shows some protective and fighting drives.
Held-Back
Dogs must be rated "Held-Back" if there is sufficient doubt about the dog's behavior as it relates to soundness of temperament and breed-suitability. A dog so rated may not be shown to another judge, until the expiration of a 3 month waiting period. A dog can only be rated "Held-Back" one time.
Unsuitable for Breeding
Shy, nervous and timid dogs can not be rated suitable for breeding.
Following the recent sheep chasing posts, this might be of interest. Our neighbours daughter visited her parents for the weekend & asked if she could walk along the river. We said yes, as long as she stayed out of the lambing field. Next thing we knew, she had taken her boxer in the lamb field, let it off the lead and we had a ewe in the river. managed to get her out but badly bitten on the face & died within a couple of hours. I now have 3 orphan lambs to rear as well as everything else! I was livid, my other half was bordering on murder, (both the boxer & its owner!) and the silly woman said, "oh dear, he did that last time he saw a sheep too, but we took him to a behaviorist & she said it was probably a one off & not to worry as we live in the town"
Sam
![[de]](/images/flags/de.png "Germany")
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