I'm not defending all 'behavourists' here - there are too many who have jumped on the bandwagon, and not enough who pay attention to animal/owner behaviour.

The one I know who is also our agility instructor and has all kinds of classes, tends to look at her job as a behaviourist as evaluating the owners first - and 'how' they have trained the dog - rather than what is 'wrong' with the dog. I believe that is why she is successful - of course having a willing owner who is happy to admit they are the cause of most of the problems makes a big difference.

So in essence the behaviourist I know would probably agree with your post above:)

Wendy

Yes I know your right Wendy, there are some good trainers who call themselves behaviourists.

I use all or any combination of methods depending on the dog, all training is really behaviourist in as much as it involves the combination of both operant and classical conditioning.

I think the problem for the sort of person you mentioned is that the vast majority of those belonging to one or other of the behaviourists organisations make statements which they imply includes all and everyone who says they are a behaviourist and it simply spills on to those genuine trainers.

They invariably proffess to take on any dog and owner.

Some of the genuine ones are only to well aware that they are only capable of training 'some' dog/owner teams and not all, these are unfortunatly in the minority and the vast majority of behaviouists claim all and every dog/owner.

Heavens knows I've been training for long enough but I would not remotely attempt to proffess that I could train any dog, I know for sure that most of the dogs I see I would not have the interest and that in itself is enough and no amount of money could motivate me.

But oh no, not behaviourists, they claim anything from a Mexican Hairless to a Sabre Tooth Mongrel, Jack of all dogs masters of none.

I think it's time people like the person you mentioned made a stand and dissociated themselves, there is a growing tendancy now for dissatisfaction towards behaviourists.

Seen from another angle, every commercial product (which is what behaviourism is) reaches its peak and then declines, I think that currently we are on the edge of that downhill slope.

I actually feel that the problem stems from modern day people not being able to cope with "doggy behavior" & feeling the need to rush off to get help. (Even though 30 years ago you would accept it was doggy behavior, instill a bit of discipline & get on with life!)
Its rather like the modern attitude of "sue them for anything" or "you need counselling".......I am so against all this stuff. The behaviourists are simply filling the niche being created by peoiples daftness.....bit like all these "counsellors" that spring up for every occassion!

Agree. I feel that 'dog sense' is not passed down through the generations anymore. I learnt so much about dogs from my grandparents, parent etc. All common sense stuff But now it is frowned upon if you do not do it the 'modern' way. Sad very sad.

Whoever decided that you must not 'touch' a dog to be able to correct a misdemeanor needs shooting! People are now 'scared' to take a dog by the scruff/muzzle or even the collar and tell it 'no' for fear of being accused of cruelty or abuse!!! Who started that train of thought?
Would it be the same 'people' who decided that you should not nip unacceptable behaviour in the bud, the instant it happens?

It is very interesting watching all the different threads and the one thing that is very apparent is that people do not 'react' as soon as the dog steps out of line or does something that you do not want it to do! Whatever happened to peoples instincts and common sense?

I can't agree more Leigh,
A couple of months ago Keith and I were out in the car with Shadow and I had to get out and go into a shop, Keith stayed in the car with the dog, and as I got out he went ballistic, barking and crying and throwing himself all over the car,
Keith got hold of his scruff and told him to behave, very loudly!!!
This was witnessed by a lady who started shaking her head and tutting disapproovingly!
Keith motioned over that he was correcting the bad behaviour and she just tutted and walked off.
What did she want him to do? stroke and cajole a 5 stone GSD who was behaving like a spoilt kid?
Due to all the practice we had leaving him in the car and one of us staying with him he now is much better. - still cries a bit but is getting much better.
If both of us leave him in the car he lies down eventually and goes to sleep. (its our fault for calling him shadow - he just tries to live up to his name)

I agree also Leigh.

My two dogs have had there necks scruffed by me and had a few taps across there nose can't be doing with this softly softly thing.

Same goes for my Daughter she has had a few smacks across her legs.

Karen

Sam I so agree that sheep have no idea if the dog is not going to be bothered with them! You never go near farm stock any way? And if like me we were in the highlands with sheep all around us yes molly needed a wee the lead went on she went to wee had a sniff and back in the motorhome again and off we went to find some where we could have a play with the ball away from any sheep etc. Nothing to write home about just using your marbles???

I hate people like that shaking their heads at you when you are correcting your dogs behaviour. None of their bussiness. We had an instance when in Cornwall in St Ives Molly is not trustworthy of walking down the main streets with all those people around you to many fingers to nip, so on goes her muzle. This lady came up to us saying that it was cruel to have this on my dog and I should take it off. I said OK then you can stroke her and your lose at least on finger and then your make me put my dog down right? With that she walked off! But I like to think that my husband and I have Molly's interest at heart and want her for life? Shorly these so called dog lovers should know that? or not in our cases!!

Julieann

I also agree with you Leigh, and Sam, I hate the modern 'quick fix' attitude as well as the 'what's in it for me' attitude that seems to be rife in society with people suing left, right, and centre for anything. I was on the beach last week, also and when I wouldn't let Elsa run over to a toddler(to play), she began lungeing and growling at this toddler, so I yanked her lead and shouted 'NO' which stopped her immediately, but other people were looking at me disapprovingly. I don't care, I am not having my dog acting this way, especially towards a toddler, and talking in a 'cutsie' voice isn't going to teach her that it's wrong. People are too quick to pass judgement, and not to take responsibility for their own actions/decisions. Sams case shows this in a way, though it seems that the people are taking responsibility to a certain extent. It is just a shame that they didn't think to do this BEFORE this tragedy happened, and lets face it, they could have predicted it using their own common sense, never mind what a 'behaviourist' says!
Emily, on my soapbox.

I learnt what I know about dogs through living with them all my life and mixing with people who worked with them. I've only ever been to one obedience class and walked out when I disagreed with the trainer over a bad habit that the dogs were learning, not to worry she said we can train that out later !
I have never understood the idea behind ignoring bad behaviour, especially if it is something dangerous like growling/snapping at people, kids etc, it needs to be corrected and quick.
None of my dogs will ever be obedience champions, I do what is necessary for their safety and they know the rules, I take the opinion that a behaviour problem is only that if you see it as such and many people would think my boys have problems but it's the way we all live happily together and we all have a strong bond with them.
As far as sueing is concerned, well you only have to look at the big pay outs given to people for doing their jobs, something they knew about when they chose that career, for Sam I am pleased that her neighbours have paid for the lost ewe and the fact that they help out at other times. Ingrid

Would there be any point in my pointing out that not all 'behaviourists' use the methods you might have seen on TV? Some have moved on even further than 'Dog Listening' and their work is based on solid phsycological (I wish I could spell) research. Ignoring behaviour isn't always the right way to go, although sometimes it is, it all depends on if the dog is doing it for attention or otherwise. Just because a method is what has always worked doesn't mean it is the most effective, or most easily understood by the dog. After all, teaching methods for humans move on, so why shouldn't dogs? Most of the behaviour problems I've seen in the short time I've been assisting a former associate of John Fishers have been more based on lack of trust, bond and/or respect from the dog and these are the foundations of any well behaved dog/owner relationship and they do not always come naturally (or come by the methods passed down from Father to son)

I think everything said so far bears out the fact that people are, after the absence of 10 or 15 years, starting to come BACK to their senses after seeing the disastrous results of the NO CORRECTIONS behaviourist brigade.

But again look at the economic consequences of that sort of attitude if it is imposed by those who earn from it.

Firstly you have someone who has probably never had a dog before, they then go to a behaviourist class, they have NEVER seen a dog that has a good degree of obedience and so they have no analogy to judge by.

They then get somewhat mislead by a low drive, low rank, genetically obedient dog being the demonstrator dog in the behaviourists class, a ploy in other words. They are then told rubbish such as “Its cruel if you do this, its cruel if you do that” etc, etc. These people have never had a dog before, never gone into it before getting one and of course they are told this nonsense and believe it.

Economically the years in front are catered for by the behaviourist by getting naïve people to believe all this.

The practice in class then starts, the dog fails to carry out a KNOWN command, the behaviourist will not allow appropriate corrections, instead they use a distraction toy or similar.

What the dog has learned is that it does not have to take notice of a command and it gets a reward game instead.

That way the groundwork for a lifetime of bad habits begins followed by repeat trips to a behaviourist or therapist or counsellor with endless financial outgoings for the owner.

In the absence of any clinical diagnosis I can honestly say that I have not seen ONE single problem on this entire board and its history that does not amount to one thing and one thing only, namely, the dog and owner have never been trained properly causing the dog to take top rank and consistently reward itself with unwanted behaviour ‘as the owner interprets it’. I EXCLUDE FROM THAT ALL RESCUE DOGS.

It is a concerted economic system designed by those who seek regular income.

Once a person is trained properly it LASTS FOR LIFE, once someone has been taught to train a dog they automatically know what to do next time.

I would make it clear that if they go to another breed then they might need a breed specialist to show some different approaches BUT having said that if they understand training and dogs through a training education program breed specifics come quite easily, in fact very easily indeed.

There is only one other thing, there are some people who, for personality reasons, cannot accept the wonder of a dog, they try to make little humans out of them and in effect they do not realise they are not enjoying a dog AS A DOG. These people need therapy, not the dog, which lives a life of constant reward via misbehaviour. A dog in the life of this sort of personality is substituting something, which they are unable to get through a human relationship.

All I can say Avaunt is that you've not spend any time with a 'proper' behaviourist - anyone can call themselves at the moment, and for most it's the result of maybe a 6 months correspondence course.......... The lady I work with is a BSc Phsychology working towards her Masters, and a former colleague of John Fisher, who was helping in the work he was doing when he died after he realised that pack ranking isn't all it's cracked up to be. She also has Red Setters who are obedience trained (but not 'push button' dogs), the bitch also does a credible agility - all trained using 'kind' methods - and that doesn't mean NO CORRECTIONS or forbidding yelling at your dog if it's not listening to you.

Firstly,
'The lady I work with is a BSc Phsychology working towards her Masters'

Thats EXACTLY the point, does she have a UDx? does she have a PDx?
No of course not. It is quite true that some people equate a uni dgeree with an ability to become a singer/songwriter, a Prime Minister or even a dog trainer.

Setters are quite an easy dog, they are not as obedient as Labs or GSD's but they are nothing like as difficult as Terriers to train.

A uni degree means absolutly nothing in the field, if they really wanted to show what they can then they would show at least a UDx with a male dog which is not renowned for obedience...lets say a boxer.

The idea of sitting in a classroom for 3 years and coming out saying I am a dog trainer is unreal.

No Avaunt, the lady concerned does not have a Udx or a PDx, because her interest is not in training dogs for such competitions, but in improving the way people train their own dogs to be good family pets - to posess on of these qualifications only proves her ability to train dogs, it illistrates nothing of her understanding of cognitive methods or ability to understand the symptoms a stressed dog exhibits, or the ability to train/teach the owners (which is what a good behaviourist does anyway). A university degree illustrates a knowledge of the physiological processes that occur when training/teaching any animal (human or canine) and this is far more relavent than any knowledge of field or competative skills. Incidentally, all her dogs have been rescues which have already been screwed up by some human (maybe even one who claims to posses a modicum of this rare comodity 'common sense') and like my dogs are now enjoying a happy and balanced life being DOGS not some automated machine......

John Fisher - wonderful man! Sad loss to the doggy world.

KirstyS

Come on Avaunt pick up the gauntlet let us know what your like .I look llike the
little confused sign with long hair .

Pat

Yippee at long last some sensible comments on training.

I'm with you all the way Leigh, as you already know. I hate to think what my pack would behave like if they had been trained by some of these so called "behaviourists". At least I know that I can take any of them anywhere and they will behave themselves, maybe not to obedience standards but certainly so that they are not a nuisance to anyone or anything.

and no before anyone asks my dogs are not beaten into submission, but they know that bad behaviour will result in them getting yelled at and if necessary scruffed. Good behaviour pleases me ( pack leader) and thats what they want to please me.

By the way Sam. sorry to hear of your loss of a ewe. We are bottle feeding 9 lambs at the moment, my son has just come to the end of his lambing time with his flock, and these are all orphans. So I empathise with the extra work this is causing you.

Regards

Daz

for Leigh I agree wholeheartedly Leigh , dogs need to know who is charge in the beginning, AND a good scruffing is usually enough , I dont know how anyone can call that cruel . I have watched handlers in the ring with boxers especially , when they decide they want to have the dog next to them ,get a good wallop . and they behave then .My Father always said and I repeat this so often that saucy dogs get torn jackets. I am afraid that if my bullmastiffs were not aware who is boss in my house I would be lost . I give them a whack if they are acting the maggot with me , and it never did them no harm I guess it is because I did not have a lump hammer to hit them with , :D because that is what you would need to hurt a bullmastiff . not a wallop from your hand ,but even though it does not hurt they know I am angry and behave, I do not like cruelty but I dont consider a wallop cruel . I rarely have to, but if my dogs get out of line they are getting a wallop , and I believe if all were being honest they would admit that they have given a wallop as well . I wait now for the flack , but I am asking for those who post to be honest . I think there would be less biting less growling , etc if they knew it was not allowed. dogs are smart and do know the difference between a correction and abuse. Like children dogs will take you to the limit if you let them . best wishes Marie.

Mari. I am with you 100%

Mari,
My little butter wouldn't melt in her mouth pup decided that it was good to growl when I wanted to take a stick off her she was chewing - a slap of the backside and a stern NO and she hasn't tried it again !
Not saying there will never be another growl from her but not in those circumstances. Because of this "attitude" I have made more of a point of removing things from her at random - I want it sorting now while she weighs a stone and has small teeth , NOT when she is heavier with a bigger mouth :D
If she just hadn't wanted to give something up to me but showed NO aggression I may have used distraction in the form of giving her something she should have but I will not tolerate a growl.
I think she is fiestier than other pups I've had partly because she is used to standing her ground with Sam (all other dogs have always been on their own) but I will make sure she knows I'm Boss and want treating with respect. For the correct behaviour she will be rewarded with love and kindness.
Sara

I agree Saraw if the dog is not good for you there is no pleasure. none of us like to smack . but there are times. and like you said Saraw now is the time to mould her . no point in closing the gate after the horse has gone and all that . Mari

Sam, couldn't agree more. And I agree about many (money making behaviourists). Well said!