Have a 16 week old bitch pup who lives with my 18 month old male. They get on great, apart from her stealing his toys and being bossy etc! We took her to training last week and she was very aggressive towards the other dogs there, something she has never displayed before. She even snapped at dogs that werent close to her. My male was there and she was still fine with him. She is teething at the mo but apart from this display, her behaviour hasnt changed at all and she has never shown any aggression to any of us. Could anyone suggest maybe why she was like that? And is it possible to stop it and if so how? Should we be concerned that she is always going to be dog aggressive?

I often find that puppies who live with older dogs and play unrestricted games with an older dog have to resort to high levels of defence when they feel the game is getting out of control - I'd suggest this has happened with your girl and she hasnt' learnt the subtle levels needed for pup to pup games.  I'd be keeping a very careful eye on her games with the older dog, and cut them short if she breaks free and gives any signals that she's had enough (a body shake is one of them - it's a signal to the other dog to quit, which he may not be taking any notice of)

LOL :P  I need to learn to type faster (or shut up :D )

> LOL   I need to learn to type faster (or shut up  )

Me too!

Hi Guest,

your puppy may have been reacting nervously towards unknown and uninvited approaches by other dogs in the class - just because she is confident and playful with your older resident dog (who is still very young also) doesn't mean that she has learned how to interact with other dogs.  Quite often pups joining a household with a young and playful dog already there don't get told off re. correct doggie etiquette in the same way as would happen were the original dog fully mature.

Perhaps you could join and give more info and then more specific advice will be available to you but as for you having an aggressive issue at the moment I would say "No, you haven't" but then again it could, if ignored or mishandled, develop into one.

Hopefully you'll take the time to register, it's free   Regards, Teri

We can all give lots of suggestions why she is doing it but it is only guesswork without seeing it.

She might be being a bully and more so because she had the back up of your male dog. You've said she is teething, she could be in pain. On the other hand she might have been terrified of lots of strange dogs so close to her and was trying to defend herself.

Whatever the reason she is doing it it does need to be dealt with now rather than letting it become her usual behaviour which will be harder to change. But you need to know why she does it, that will influence what you do about it.

If your trainers are good ask them to watch her during class and tell you what is happening and what to do. If they are not helpful or don't know then change classes now!

If I were you I'd also take the two dogs to seperate classes. As mentioned she might be feeling she has the back up of your boy, and if she is insecure she needs to learn how to cope without him by her side. It is your job to protect her so she shouldn't need him at all if you are doing your job properly. Obviously this is another thing that is easier to deal with now rather than waiting until something happens to your male dog and she no longer has him around (sorry but we do have to face the fact that at some point she may be left without him due to injury/death).

Puppies do play quite rough and as far as most puppies are concerned anything that is left out for them is their toy. That means her/his dog toys, your shoes, etc. If playing gets out of hand then step in and stop them, but only do it if there is going to be damage done to themselves or your house.

At 16 wks old, your puppy's time has nearly run out.  At 18 wks her socialisation "window" will close and you will not be able to socialise her.

Can I ask:

Has she met any other puppies her age, or in fact any other dogs, apart from your 18 month old male?

Why has she not been to any training prior to 16 wks?

She should have been meeting other puppies on an almost daily basis from 7 weeks to 18 wks.  If you have had her shut up in your house, with only your dog for comfort, chances are she is now poorly socialised and will never entirely recover and be the confident dog she might have been, had you had the sense and done the research to socialise her at the earliest opportunity.

>At 18 wks her socialisation "window" will close and you will not be able to socialise her.<

That's a bit of a sweeping statement & as all dogs are individuals there are no "set in stone"times

Due to the F&M & various problems beynd my control I couldn't socialize my middle Cavalier very much until he was well past his "window"he with correct training is fine & there are lots of dogs that can be turned round successfully given time & patience

I do wish people would not quote theories as if they are fixed & proved facts

There are numerous studies I could quote which all support what I have stated.

To begin with one - Scott and Fuller in 1965 concluded that puppies demonstrate an investigation-attraction behavior towards the unfamiliar as soon as they are able to express this attraction (almost adult motor capacity), in other words at 3½ weeks. This attraction subsides in an almost linear manner after the fifth week until at least 9 weeks. The attraction recedes under the influence of fear of the unknown behavior which grows after 5 weeks; the puppy "recovers" from its initial fearful reaction instantaneously from 3 to 5 weeks (investigation behavior effect), and then it remains wary for longer periods as it grows older. At 12 weeks socialization requires active manipulation (mimicking play-fights), BY 14 WEEKS socialization seems to be impossible.

I could quite easily write an entire essay and quote dozens of experiments on this, but I'll stop here.

Obviously there will always be exceptions to every rule and puppies who have had a disadvantaged start but turn out fine, and that may also be partly due to genetics or breed.  That does not negate what the end result would be for the majority of puppies brought up in that manner.

I do wish people would not dismiss fixed and proven facts as theories.

"I do wish people would not dismiss fixed and proven facts as theories."

Fixed and proven in every[/link] breed?
No allowance for differences in orgins & temperament?

Your 18 weeks would probably be far too late in one of my breeds, but in the other - no way!
 

"I do wish people would not dismiss fixed and proven facts as theories."

Fixed and proven in every breed?
No allowance for differences in orgins & temperament?

Your 18 weeks would probably be far too late in one of my breeds, but in the other - no way!
 

Look, my general point is that a 16 wk old puppy which has only met 1 other dog is at a severe disadvantage and statistically much more likely to become either fearful and/or aggressive towards other dogs. 

We can debate whether the cut off is 14,15,16 or 20 wks, what the effect of the breed and sex of the dog is and all the details, but the above point is valid and stands.

OK.  So the socialisation window "closes" by the age of 20 weeks. Fact.    So what do you suggest for a puppy that hasn't been socialised during this time?   Euthanise it?   

To put the point so baldly, without any suggestions could make some people feel that they might as well give up completely

Margot

A puppy of 20 weeks who hasn't been socialised and it's owner are going to have an uphill struggle, and management may be more useful than training, particularly to avoid further episodes when the dog learns that his ways work.  But the most important thing, and what I think onetwothree is trying to get across, is that the owner should be aware of the situation that has developed, and adapt accordingly instead of expecting things that the dog may never be able to give.  - it's all about expectations - people on this board jump up and down when a 10 week old puppies owner complains it isn't house trained, but not when somebody points out a 20 week old pup that hasn't been socialised is never going to be the life and soul of the party......

Well, that was kind of my point Digger.

Margot - no, I'm not suggesting euthanise it, but yes there is the sense of "it's too late" in my reply, which in many ways I believe it is.

Of course dogs can still be socialised slowly, with extra care and attention, with careful selection of well-socialised stooge dogs which aren't going to turn and reciprocate when the aggressive puppy starts at them, thereby teaching the puppy that aggression works - but it's not ideal, it will need a lot more time and effort, which, if someone can't be bothered to do with a puppy between 7 wks-18 wks, I don't think would be bothered with even more time and effort with an older puppy with problems.  And if it was a lack of knowledge which prevented them from knowing to socialise it, then I can't give someone, who doesn't know something so fundamental, enough information and knowledge on how to solve something even more problematic than simple puppy socialisation this way, on line either. 

Socialisation is the single most important thing anyone can do for their puppy, and I guess I just get a little depressed at the number of people I come across who haven't socialised their puppy and don't think there's anything wrong with it....until there is suddenly, and by then it's too late for socialisation, because the puppy has left the critical period.  I do see these people as condemning a puppy to a less-than-ideal life through their ignorance and lack of research prior to getting a puppy, and yes it does frustrate me more than, say, a puppy with toilet training problems, or a puppy which jumps up - or any of the other things which people post about on CD. 

God I'm knackered then am I with my 21 week old Spanish who has decided that she want's nothing to do with people?

I certainly hope not.  I think that this is a dangerous thing to say and is totally disheartening to people like me that have socialised their pups and who suddenly go off!

I'm glad that the person who is going to help me hasn't decided that she's past any help!

SWD - of course there are also people who have done all the "right" things and tried to socialise their puppies correctly, but have run into problems, and for these people it's unfortunate and I have all the time in the world.  However, I don't believe the original poster falls into this category, going from what they said, and that's a different category.

Hi 123,

as is often the case, the Guest has not given anything like a detailed account of what s/he has done with this puppy since it left the breeder.  For all any of us are aware although this may have been this pup's first experience of a training class, it could still have been to countless places where it had the opportunity to be well socialised  - we don't know    It may also meet other dogs regularly and ignore them because it has a "live in friend" and have simply been totally overwhelmed by the "class environment".

I can understand you wishing to stress how important early socialisation is - and IMO it is equally relevant to stress how important ongoing socialisation is - but the OP may now feel that they have no possibility of overcoming this behaviour (which we can't even assess correctly on the sketchy details provided) and I'm sure that was not your intention.

Look how many happy, well adjusted rescue dogs we see on multiple TV shows and read about in the canine press which learn to overcome "fear of life" - some of them at 2,3,4,5, + years of age!   I meet several on my walks too so it's not a publicity stunt by the media - such dogs do exist

I fail to see how you can *categorise* this poster or the puppy on the info we have available

Regards, Teri

yes there is the sense of "it's too late" in my reply, which in many ways I believe it is.

So there is a cut off point at 18/20 weeks and that's that?? 

Or am I reading this completely wrong?? 

Are you the "Guest" poster

Nope, fraid not!

>I do wish people would not dismiss fixed and proven facts as theories.<

In my opinion this type of experiment is theory.   Fixed and proven facts in my opinion have to be backed up with visible and scientific proof.  Results from behaviour study are theories based on many studies and observations ALL Which can be interpretated differently in my opinion.

"WE" people collectively have to be able to make our own mind up and we certainly do interpretate things differently.

For what it is worth I think some of the behaviour studies are pants this of course is my opinion. I personally think a puppy who goes on to have a suspect nature had the ability to do that from birth.

I have had well socialised puppies that have what I would class as suspect natures and unsocialised puppies for whatever reason with no problem at all.

I am not dismissing everything that has been said but I am saying don't rely and believe everything you read and we shouldn't insist people believe what we believe.

When I think of the management books that have been written over the years and every single one had hundreds of analysis to back up every single theory and workers and motivations, we then move into the next generation , with new writers and the previous beliefs are thrown out as more studies, have been done to squash the first lot. Human behaviour is the perfect example of this

>At 16 wks old, your puppy's time has nearly run out.  At 18 wks her socialisation "window" will close and you will not be able to socialise her.<

Hmmm

> If you have had her shut up in your house, with only your dog for comfort, chances are she is now poorly socialised and will never entirely recover and be the confident dog she might have been, had you had the sense and done the research to socialise her at the earliest opportunity.<

This is a prime example of taking things OTT...  Did you get this from the same author.

I have had a couple dogs for whatever reason have never been out and socialised before 18 weeks and they would put every single thing you said here on it's head. 

>will never entirely recover<    The only type of puppy that would suffer in my opinion is ones that could have been suspect natured anyway.

We are becoming a nation obsessed with puppy behaviour.

Dear OP

I shall not get bogged down in theories, studies which may or may not be applicable to your particular circumstances.

Why not look at it another way.

Dogs, like us, are individuals; some are party animals, some have a more Garboesque outlook on life.  Breeds have differing predispositions and there are atypical members of each, so whilst some generalisations are valid they do not take account of all the factors of the particular animal and environment in question (a bit like star signs) :D

Maybe on this particular day she was having a "bad hair day", maybe there was something/someone etc there which upset her (remember dogs can hear things we cannot, so it highly possible that any high frequency sound in the vicinity could have sent her doolally(.

The permuations are endless.  We can only speculate which is not particularly helpful to you.

I would not make any judgement about any dog on the basis of one episode.

Of course she will be bossy with your male, she is a bitch, and, like most animals, it is the female who is really the boss!

Relax, chill, enjoy your dog and deal with what you ACTUALLY have rather than what you MAY have.

Most dogs cope with most things eventually, given time, patience etc etc

Good luck

I agree with the remarks about the importance of socialisation ; in this day and age especially it is very important. I suspect sometimes peeps don't understand HOW important, maybe they can't get into a puppy class until several weeks after vaccinating, so the pups may not socialise well until 16-17 weeks.

My first Belgian was from a farm (not puppy farm, I mean the farmer's wife was one of those who insisted on breeding her bitch once, and the breeder in the area in despair allowed her to mate to her rather glam imported stud dog, rather than have her mate some other dog). She was the last puppy, and i had wanted a ,male pup anyway so nearly didn't have her. The farmers had children and one with Downs; several other farm dogs and of course cattle, chickens etc.

Tasha was 15 weeks when i got her and had never been off the farm.
Her first walk, she was frightened by a boxer and ran away - thank goodness she ran back to me when I called as she was very frightend. ( I should not have had her off the lead but knew less then, 20 years ago).

I walked her every day so she met lots of other dogs, and got my second Belgian, a male,  3 months later. The story has a happy ending in that she was the best dog I have ever had - in spite of her not having been socialised beforehand. She was wonderful with other dogs, only had 2 fights in her life caused by other dogs, and became fabulous at body language. Sadly I believe her lines are now lost, as she came from a line of dogs noted for excellent character, I believe in her case her genes helped enormously.

I do believe there is the mix of nature and nurture that makes the dog - but in my dog's case i was very lucky in that her genes helped, but this cannot be relied upon and socialiation and habituation is so important.

Lindsay
x

Wouldn't living on a farm with children, dogs and other animals lead to lots of socialisation?  OK she obviously hadn't met a boxer dog before but even when you set off on a carefully structured program of socialisation you can't cover every eventuality can you.  Or are you saying she was shut away from all the people and dogs?
My experience has led me to believe nature has a greater part to play that nuture.  My first cocker came from a working spaniel breeder who breed show type cockers as a financial side line   She was reared in an outside run.  Due to a house move I did not collect her until she was 12 weeks when she had spent the last 4 weeks alone in a pen with just the sight of the other dogs and the man and his wife going about the kennels and yet she was the most laid back, quietly sociable dog I have ever owned.

Lots of socialisation with the things you find on a farm, yes - but not town or city

Yes; she basically had met quite a few people, and lots of different animals, but had only met 2 dogs - her mother Belgian, and the working collie (plus of course her litter mates) 
Sorry I think i said earlier they had several other farm dogs, but i only actually remember the collie and the Belgian.

By the age of 15 weeks, she should have met lots of dogs of all ages and sizes and breeds (ideally).

Glad to hear your cocker did so well

Lindsay
x

Yes she was a little darling.  We frown on that sort of breeding now but of course in the present day context it is likely to be backyard breeders doing this for an income with no knowledge or thought but years ago it was pretty common amongst real "dog" people to have a "cash" breed.  Although there wasn't the health screening we have alvailable now, they had tremendous experience in knowing how to breed a good strong dog in mind and body.  Of course they didn't have any qualms about culling or shifting on adult stock not up to the mark either and I sometimes wonder if a modern softness particularly about the latter has led to more problems perhaps with temperament and the like than they would have ever tolerated in those days.  Just musing really

Hi There

My eldest GSD now turned 7 was 15 months when I got her, she lived with 2 other GSD`s and had only been excercised in the field next door which belonged to her owner, consequently she had never met any other dogs and had never seen a cat.    However initially she was nervousof other dogs and the first time I took her training she was a quivering mass of jelly, panting etc so bad that I had to leave and take her home. I then took her 1 to 1 training and then gradually introduced her to other dogs at the training classes.  Well, within 6 months she was a totally different dog, I used to take her to dog shows and she was always off the lead, to this day I have never had any probs at all...the only problem she has is cats...she hates them, everyone told me I would have masssive problems with her due to her not being socialised as a puppy but they were wrong.

I think nature does have a deal to do with it but I must say that I've noticed the effects of the socialisation "window" slowly closing on my own pup who is now 18 weeks old and it must be very difficult to try and regain those opportunities.

Fortunately I've been able to give him the sort of socialisation you normally only see on the pages of The Tatler but for all the experiences we have managed to cram in - and there have been very, very, many! - I'm acutely aware of how spooked he gets by encountering the odd thing that wasn't possible to include. Spooked in a way that simply didn't exist at, say, 12 weeks when he would have looked at the huge container lorry unloading vast containers very noisily and gone "So?" whereas at 18 weeks his reaction was "Too scary, want to go HOME...".

>the sort of socialisation you normally only see on the pages of The Tatler

You mean he's met Ben Fogle, lucky pup :D

Everyone has got me really worried now. My Border terrier puppy is nearly 15 weeks old and had her 2nd jabs last week so the vet said that we can start taking her out tomorrow.I have booked up to go to training classes starting at the weekend. This will be the first time that she has been properly socialised with other dogs. I only know one other person with a dog, which she hasnt met as my friend was a bit worried her great dane unintentionally squashing my puppy. Do you think I am going to have problems.?

FWIW I rehomed a large breed at 10 months that had never been let off the lead or played with other dogs. He was fine (in these areas at least), so do not panic over something you cannot change now, but keep it in the back of your mind for when you get your next one.

We also imported a dog at 9 weeks who spent six months in solitary confinement in Quarantine.

No contact with other dogs other than hearing them, and only visits from me and his oth3er new owners about 3 times a week for an hour or so apart from his kennel maid.

He came out of quarantine with no problems other than a dislike of car travel, though he just puts up with it :D

He was at his first dog show 3 days after coming out of quarantine, and thought everyone was his freind, canine or human.

Nearly 15 weeks is quite different to over 16 weeks.  Just ensure the socialisation is carefully controlled (as it should be at for any puppy interactions, and not a 'free for all').  I find even the most retiring puppy is able to play with one or two 'special friends' if carefully introduced.  Then you can move forwards by gradually introducing the puppy to more and more robust playmates - all is not lost

This is for onetwothree. I am the owner of the afore mentioned puppy, finally been able to join. Before i set a few things straight, may i first say how dare you say that I am condemning my puppy to a less than ideal, disadvantaged life as i have a lack of knowledge, have not been bothered, have not researched and am ignorant. Before you jump on your high horse and judge people, at least get your facts right first.
So to set the record straight: puppy has been socialised with other dogs and in numerous situations, on a daily basis. She has been going to training for weeks but this was the first time she had exhibited this kind of behaviour, i have researched and as you put it done all the "right" things and tried to socialise their puppies correctly, but have run into problems". This was a one off and therefore i was asking for advice, not a slating.

You said: "We took her to training last week and she was very aggressive towards the other dogs there"

Sorry but if I was taking a puppy to regular puppy classes I would say "We are taking her" or "At training last week". 

Your post does not say 1. the puppy has been socialised with other dogs on a daily basis or 2. she has been going to training for weeks.

We can only go by what posters say in their first post and, in the absence of other relevant information, I wouldn't assume there is a lot of info the poster is withholding....

You will also notice that my first post to you says:

"Has she met any other puppies her age, or in fact any other dogs, apart from your 18 month old male?

Why has she not been to any training prior to 16 wks?

She should have been meeting other puppies on an almost daily basis from 7 weeks to 18 wks.  If you have had her shut up in your house, with only your dog for comfort, chances are she is now poorly socialised and will never entirely recover and be the confident dog she might have been, had you had the sense and done the research to socialise her at the earliest opportunity."

It asks questions, and then it says IF you haven't taken her out, then (and so on).  It makes no assumptions.  The subsequent posts were a general conversation with others about the socialisation cut-off time and were not in relevance to your particular puppy and that much is obvious.

Could it just be the teething? I'm damwell mad with toothache and don't you dare come near me or take away something that gives me relief!