like telling me somthing but its something else

hi sam,

just reading your posts, can you tell me why your friend feels justified in selling a stafford for £900 pounds?  to me this seems very exspensive are they special or rare?

it is a lot of money if they dont hav the important health tests they need

Someone who sells a staff for £900 wether health tested or not is just a rip off merchant.Someone who breeds without health testing is a irresponsible and breeding for money not the good of the breed
Archer

£900 for a Stafford sorry but I would'nt even pay that for a blue, thats a lot of wonga you could buy two for that from someone else   (Not suggesting that anyone should buy two pups from anyone though)

:rolleyes:  i actually own two staffords that i show.  both my staffords have good breeding have done well in the show ring both at open and champ show level and most importantly have had the relevant tests, and have come back as clear on both counts.  it makes me laugh that these breeders charge so much for blue staffords which if you look at a certain website that is advertising staffords are rare as they are a lot of blue staffords for sale.  blue staffords aren't rare or special they are a diluted gene to make that colour.  you very rarely see a blue stafford in the show ring not because they are thin on the ground, but because they are not liked very often.  don't you think if these blue staffords were really rare, the first people to get them would be the show people.  i just wanted to know sams opinion as to why the blues are selling for so much more., why does your friend sell them for so much? do they have champion parents?  how many cc's do they have?  a blue stafford selling for £900 pounds is disguisting, nothing more than a puppy farmer, after the money nore more nothing less.  a stafford regardless of colour be it blue, black, white any colour with no kc papers are worth £200 maximum. 

venus, all depends on what is rare or special, first of all unless your into this breed i dont think you will part with you hard earnd cash, you can come to london councils estate and buy a staff for a 100 pound or you can get a few breeders names of this forum  and buy a staff for 450pound you might even get a bulldog pup for one to two grand you can look on other sits and get a irish staff sarting from300 to lke 750 but to find the right dog will not happen in a day or a week or a month,each person if you have had a bull terrier before looks for a dog what thay want, and as you are the buyer no one can tell you what to get people can advice you and tell you of a good breeder,i have been around my little ones parents and have seen the temp thay have ive seen how they are looked after and have seen the love my mate gives his dogs,he says he will not breed the bitch again but i cant say if he will or not, like i said he was selling my pup for 750pound and i got her for 350pound but i know myself and if i never new the man i would have been parting with my 750 cash, no one has to part with ther money what is wrong if someone is selling a i.k.c and telling them its a k.c like if someone is selling a k.c. and says its a i.k.c,, but one thing i do think that most breeders who say thay do not do it for the money talk pants,because when you get your reg of the kennell club if you buy a k.c. and have a look at the pups they have reg in just say the last year and times that what you just paid them, and then tell me that they just breed to get the best out of the breed 

Did you read the link I gave you?  http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm
that dewscribes the 3 main types of breeder?
1) Responsible people with a passion for their breed whose aim is to maintain/improve their breed, and take full lifelong responsibility for the stock they produce, as well as only breeding from health tested, temperamentally sound stock that comply closely to the breed standard.

2)Casual breeders (often termed backyard breeders), who misguidedly produce puppies, often unregistered for various fluffy reasons, or to make a bit of pin money, who at best don't realise the harm such haphazard actions can do to their breed, and do no health testing or any serious evaluation of their stock.

3)Commercial breeders who exploit the market for puppies, and any particular current fashion, don't give a damn about the breed, standards or health, with the maximum profit for least outlay being their criteria.

You can decide for yourself which category your pups breeder falls into :D

To breed properly takes money and time, so such breeders breed infrequently and spen a lot on evaluating breeding stock (showing), health testing, and rearing of the occasional litter.  This is far from profitable, but it was never designed to be, at best the breeder will recoup their costs and something towards the upkeep of their dogs and the odd show entry.

brainless,.. responsible breeders with a passion for their breed whose aim is to maintain and improve their breed and take life long,responsibilty for their stock,so what happens  to all the pups they breed over the life long years do you give them to pople who love the staff for free, do you take money of people for you pups,please please befor you go any further you have to look and see  how many puppys a breeder in your k.c breed over just one year,and even offer their dogs for stud at 300pound a go he ant got one or two dogs how many dogs do you think this responsible breeder has,my mate had five pups last year and he has one dog now you tell me who is responsible no one who breeds that many dogs k.c or not k.c  do it for the money ive been to breeders to get a staff with my little brother 12 years a go how many of ther dogs live inside ther homes how many of them dogs have a hug before thay go to bed how many of them dogs have a bit of sirlorn for dinner and thay are champs? so can you advice me i should have bought a champ show ring dog of them people.i am starting to think you do not like or dont want the irish staff around because if its 100pound or 900 pound some of the k.c. breeders are going to lose a lot of money,even their house,s when my pup mybe in 3 years tme i whould love her to have a litter just the  one and lots of my mates even a scholl teacher has asked me if i ever breed my pup chould she have a pup,i would not sell them pups i whould not give them to any one i never new, thats if i ever do breed her, money money money thats why big breeders breed dogs and why people hold up banks 

Sam, I'm not sure I understand your point. Responsible breeders carefully plan a litter in an attempt to get the resulting pups of a higher quality and closer to the breed standard than either of the parents - as such they'll be spending close to £2000 on rearing (including their time off work to look after them) - with puppies from most breeds selling for about £500 there's very little profit to be had, especially when one puppy is generally kept to keep the line going. Stud fees and puppy prices are generally very similar. I don't know a single breeder whose dogs live outside - they're all house pets as well as show dogs and breeding stock - yes, even the champions!

i went to a few breeders just outside london the dogs live in brick kennells thay dont live inside , if a breeder reg a 10 pups or 20 pups with the k.c or a 100 pups in a year, please tell me the truth how many pups did you reg in the last year you are a good breeder i dont know you you are most prob nice and lovely but just help me on this one how many pups whould a good breeder like you breed now the truth thanks

I have been breeding since 1995 and bred a total of 57 puppies.  Four of those live with me.  Of those sold so far 5 others have gone on to be used in other breeders breeding programs, Others have won CC's and RCCs for their owners, as well as going on to be UK or overseas champions.  Of the last litter of 7 hopefully 4 will make a contribution to the breeds gene pool in 4 countries.

brainlless you cant be doing it for money it has cost you money, im not haveing a pop at you because 57 in 10 years you feel you are looking for the best, but a breeder a 100 pups a year and now ive even seen more then 100, in one year,

I will leave it to Stafford people to reply, but I would hazard a guess that no breedr that anyone would consider resposnsible (category one) would be breeding 100 pups a year.  One or two litters would be the average.

Pups are sold at a reasonable sum, as I already stated: "This is far from profitable, but it was never designed to be, at best the breeder will recoup their costs and something towards the upkeep of their dogs and the odd show entry. "

In my own breed pups are aound £550, and I expect a litter to cost around £1200 to rear (not including time and rearing and maintaining the breeding stock), if there are no issues like a C section. 

All pups are sold for the same price whether they go on to be pets only or additionally go onto become champions.  Every litter is bred in the hope that there will be pups worthy to contribute something positive to the breed and it's next genration.

There are only aproximately 120 pups of my breed registered with the Kennel Club each year, and as to maintain a helathy breeding population breed enthusiasts frequently need to import new bloodlines at considerable cost, with little or no chance of these being defrayed in stud fees, as with only 20 litters a year bred even the best stud should not be used too often.

For example just the purchase and Quaratine costs of importing a male pup in 2002 was over £3000.  Another couple of breeders have just thrown away £2000 on trying to import a dog by Pet Passport, and on arrival his Microchip couldn't be found and he had to fly back (£500 to fly in, and £700 to fly back and costsof Quarantine time at Heathrow) and will ahve to go through the entry process again taking another 7 months and another set of fligth and vet costs.

This link may be of interest Sam.
http://st15.startlogic.com/~justonel/breeder.html

There is only one recognised Register for all Pedigree dogs in this country (that has any real legitimacy that is).  The Kennel Club.

As to the breeder you visited, there are a very few with top quality animals that are able to keep larger kennels and breed more than one or two litters a year, but the vast majority of GOOD REPUTABLE breeders (category one) can only mange to do things properly by limiting the numbers of dogs and litters.  the vast majority of large scale breeders are puppy farmers (category 3).

As a simple excersise put some of the names in your pups pedigree into a search engine like Google.  If they are decent animals with a track record then you will get hits, the same thing with the Kennel names, you will usually get show results for the kennel.  If you get websites, the health results will figure prominently on their pages.

Just found that that website has been reorganised and the guide is now at this addy http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

All the articles on the site regarding breed9ing are food for thought and cover a lot of groudn beign covered here http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/index.html

well sam, for a start are you going to breed your bitch if so how old will she be?  10 months 12 months?  do you know anything about the health tests that staffords get?  its people like your friend who as a back yard breeder feels he should charge this amount of money that gives good stafford breeders a bad name.  you didn't get a good deal you got a stafford for a right price.  is your bitch kc registered?  if not what register is she on? 

why would i want to breed my bitch at 10 or 12 monts are you real you are ment to know aboyt dogs way whold you want to breed a dog at 10 monts old i was thinking more of in 3 years time.and by that time i might not even want to breed her, i think it might be nice for her to have a litter but it might also be wrong, my dog is only 3months old and to be truthfull i dont think it is fare to breed for the wrong reason money

the reason i ask you this is because you are defending your breeder by saying that its okay for him to charge ridicoulous amounts of money for pups, to me they are not doing it to improve the breed, the same as your not.  you have not once defended this "breeder" by saying yes he has had the relevant tests done! so this puppy you have bought, is it an "irish stafford"  as this is not even a breed so you spent £350.00 on a mongrel, and there are people out there who are paying double that and thinking they are getting a  good pedigree stafford!  its so wrong.  you don't think its fair to breed for money yet you are agreeing with it as you bought a pup fron this "breeder"

you ant even seen my poor little lovely, by the way she has given my 9 year old bull terrier son of champ crossguns of bullyview k.c. a new life how can she be bad hay, you should no beter are you a dog lover or are you a one breed lover. i

champ crossguns of bullyview

Sam, you need another name in there!  Crossguns is an affix and so is Bullyview.  Your 9 year old dog's sire needs his own name in there too!

checkmate

i am a stafford lover sam, which i think i can prove with health testing my dogs and only putting my stud dog to health tested bitches.  you say there is a breeder that has bred 100 puppies, where is your proof, you need facts before you can accuse people of doing this!!

come on you know this breed inside out and you are telling me you cant see this farmer as you are telling me thats what their called reg pups, your even trying to knock my english if you are the top breeders you are here to help and put people right you should be able to anser every well most things people want to know,as ive said you are not bad people most prob lovely people,mybe i have got it all wrong mybe i should go to some staff shows and see for myselfsorry if ive wond any one up but i think you seem to have a lot of hate for the irish staff, have you seen how many staffordshire bull terriers are in rescue and english bull terriers  not only cross breeds as you call them,do any of you send money to them i wonder,brainless im pos that you are a good breeder but i think other people jump on the band wagon,i will keep a eye on this site as i have took a lot of the good in,but im still wery i never thought of buying a pup of the dogs you know i mean geting a pup of a mate was so wrong,, mybe like you said thay were not breeders thay were farmers,now you have put me in the right thinking, after all this posting, you no one else has opend my eyes thanks keep the best in your breed comeing well done sam

hi sam,

to answer you many questions, yes i do support my local dog welfare, by giving food and money on a regular basis.  i also support the staffordshire bull terrier welfare, which i get magazines from each year, and i have also taken in a stafford that nobody else wanted, so i hope this answer your questions.  could you private message me and tell me which breeder is breeding puppies in excess, i will not pass on any info to anyone else, it will just be interesting to know?  anyway i hope you have learn't a bit about the way we feel our health tests and the future of our breed is so important.  i must say though that i do disagree with what you have said regarding staffords in rescue centres, as any dog can be in a rescue centre including collies, thats not the fault of the breed, but the people who breed them.  i don't know if you know, but the majority of good breeders usually say that if any new owners cannot look after the dogs for any reason the breeder will have them back at any age, this is responsible!. come to a stafford show we will take the time to sit and talk stafford all day!!  we are really a friendly bunch....

venus  im not knocking you i think anyone who gets rid of there dog because ther fed up with it,well dont want to say it on forum, well i came on your forum and started giveing it, i didnt think why every one was knocking the irish staff i see old post and thought what you all about, every one has their veiw,and can say what thay think best,i got a bit winded up and started giveing it like i said, the people who i said have breed 100 pups must be farmers i dont give names up but if thay are still breeding i dont think it will be long before thrir aired,i know loads of dogs are in bloody rescue all breeds i got my mum one a few year ago, did get to me when your gang were calling me dog a mong, it like telling me my kids were bad lookers he he anyway keep up good work, what about this one because this did make me laugh my two mates live in the county thay have two horses and five long hair retrevers, and thay breed one last year are they back street breeders, he he what you think

Sadly puppy farming isn't ilegal, but it is immoral to exploit the poor dogs, breeds and unsuspecting new owners.

Even in my own very numerically small breed that needs new enthusuasts we get one or two litters a year bred by puppy farmers and are taken care of by our rescues, as their breeders and the Retail outlests that sel them don't give a damn about them once sold.  Decent breeders take in their own pups for rehoming at any age.  My freidn had one of hers back twice wehn it's second home didn't work out (by which time the dog was a veteran) because of divorce.

my first question sam is are the parents of the litter they bred had relevant health checks?  if the answer is no then yes i think they are back yard breeders.  the reason to breed is to improve the breed.

Most people who belong to their breed clubs support the breed welfare in one way or another, some people home check, some help transport dogs, and others are at at the sharp end fostering dogs.  All will either support fundraising at club events, or as I do donate an amount from every puppy they sell.

if you compare that standard with todays standard,and thencompare the majority of todays show specimens with either standard,you can see that a contradietion of type exists, arch what does this mean

KC BREED STANDARD....
General Appearance
Smooth-coated, well balanced, of great strength for his size. Muscular, active and agile.

Characteristics
Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children.

Temperament
Bold, fearless and totally reliable.

Head and Skull
Short, deep though with broad skull. Very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, nose black.

Eyes
Dark preferred but may bear some relation to coat colour. Round, of medium size, and set to look straight ahead. Eye rims dark.

Ears
Rose or half pricked, not large or heavy. Full, drop or pricked ears highly undesirable.

Mouth
Lips tight and clean. Jaws strong, teeth large, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

Neck
Muscular, rather short, clean in outline gradually widening towards shoulders.

Forequarters
Legs straight and well boned, set rather wide apart, showing no weakness at the pasterns, from which point feet turn out a little. Shoulders well laid back with no looseness at elbow.

Body
Close-coupled, with level topline, wide front, deep brisket, well sprung ribs; muscular and well defined.

Hindquarters
Well muscled, hocks well let down with stifles well bent. Legs parallel when viewed from behind.

Feet
Well padded, strong and of medium size. Nails black in solid coloured dogs.

Tail
Medium length, low-set, tapering to a point and carried rather low. Should not curl much and may be likened to an old-fashioned pump handle.

Gait/Movement
Free, powerful and agile with economy of effort. Legs moving parallel when viewed from front or rear. Discernible drive from hindlegs.

Coat
Smooth, short and close. Colour Red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any one of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour highly undesirable.

Size
Desirable height at withers 36-41 cms (14 to 16 ins), these heights being related to the weights. Weight: dogs: 13-17 kgs (28-38 lbs); bitches 11-15.4 kgs.

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.

Sam
Your post is basically saying that the staffs in the ring today do not fit the breed standard...old or new.Now todays show dogs are judged against the breed standard...and most winning dogs will fit that standard.Each person interprets the standard in a slightly different way i.e.what is a wide front to one judge may be too narrow or too wide for another etc and so different dogs will win under different judges.However to say that they don't fit the standard in 99% of cases is absolute tosh.No dog is perfect....that is why we seek to improve with each generation on what we already have .
Archer

the last stament you made we seek to improve with each generation on what we already have; i think you will always have faithful companions thanks for you time archer