seems my cocker has this but only 1 other person i spoke to heard about this
the vet and groomer never heard of this
anyone else heard or experienced this/
Helen

http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/Rage%20Syndrome%20by%20Linda%20Ward.pdf#search='cocker%20spaniel%20rage' might be of help

Thats great info
cheers
Helen

I have heard of this but only from this site, so i am sure there are other people on here with that experience. Good luck to you hope everything goes well.

helen0362,

So sorry to hear that your cocker has this. I obviously have heard of it having working cockers (which don't carry the gene) I don't think it is that wildly known and have only ever met one other person who's solid black show cocker unfortunately had it too. I hope that you have told the breeder.

If you were to get another really important to check with the breeder that their dogs do not carry this gene.

Hi
My cocker was 7 years old from a rescue home
i had him 5 months, he bit my OH twice went for my son and bit me
took him back to the rescue home who told me he had rage and they didn't know because if they did know they wouldn't have let me home him- i suspect they had their suspisions but couln't do anything unless it had been reported to have attacked or bitten someone.
Helen

Where his symptoms REALLY rage?

Only i hate to be suspiciuos but that sounds like the rescue are covering their own back tbh.

Em

I'd also be wondering whether this was really rage. Only with a rescue it's rare to have a full history of everything that's happened to the dog. All sorts of previous bad experiences can result in unexpected aggression and while Rage Syndrome does exist it's often an easier get out to blame aggression in cockers on rage.

I still remember the day when, having caught my old cocker spaniel chasing next door's chickens round and round the henhouse I called him, rather sharply to order. His response was to grumble at me before obeying and the friend who was with me at the time asked if I was worried about him having Cocker Rage. In reality he mightn't have been best pleased having his wonderful game stopped but he most certainly did not show any of the symptoms of rage syndrome!

When i took benji (my Tan cocker spaniel) for a walk, people sometimes commented on how he behaves being all one colour?
wasn't sure was they was talking about
when we first got him he would take a sock (that fell off the pile of ironing) and go under the table to guard it, would expect if i went near he would pick it up and move with it
No if you walked pass him he would growl-go near him and he looked aggresive growling and ready to attack me
one day he had been sctatching at the door i told him firmly 'bad boy' his eyes looked glazed and he growled i calmly said garden and he went back to normal and followed me to the garden
Gave him a marrow bone (what a treat!) after 3 days still couldn't go near it( put him in the garden then chucked the bone out! phew!!!)
The rescue home told me that the only history they had on benji was that he wanted to be the top dog in the family who had another cocker (Female) they also said he wasn't too good with other dogs (didn't mind that as he lived with another cocker for 7 years-i thought it couldn't be that bad -if  he was then i'd just keep him on his lead at all times)
Took him to the park he pinned down a king charles and went for his neck-never seen agression like it!
Put him on his lead and kept him on his lead at all times
I wasn't going to be beaten
i thought i'd help him- i certainly was prepared to be in for a long haul
Contiued with weekend visits to the park -Benji wasn't a problem he was on a lead
it was the other dogs comming to have a sniff!
anytime a dog even looked at benji he growled and went berzerk- i'm sure for whatever reasdons this was not normal behaviour
20 years ago i had a cross who i wanted to breed- she woulkd let anyone look, sniff but as soon as they tried to jump on her she barked
ok some dogs maybe more aggressive?
but after attacking my husband and son for no reason whatsoever benji was out of control-he was very obsessed with me (i feed him,bath him, groom him & walk him) he followed me everywhere (when he originally went to the rspca he was only there for 2 weeks then i bought him) i was getting nervous of him it came to the point where he colud attack anyone at any time-couldn't chance it anymore
The rescue home said as you state its rare to have a full history-they added even what they're told they don't know if it or how much is true
I suppose if you tell them a dog bits and destroys the home no one will rehome it
Helen
P.S apparently rage syndrome is very common in all one colour cockers,tan,black or brown!

P.S apparently rage syndrome is very common in all one colour cockers,tan,black or brown!

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but this condition is certainly not common. From the symptoms you've described, I would say your dog Benji certainly had a poor temperament displaying aggression to other dogs & possessive aggression/resource guarding towards family members but that does not mean to say he had Rage as from what you say, his aggression was quite predictable and you had problems from the start. Did the rescue take Benji back? It's not clear from your posts whether you are asking for advice on how to deal with your dog or whether he has gone back to the Rescue now?

Jane

Got my info from 2 different vets and the rescue home

When Benji was good which was most of the time as he showed his aggression always with other dogs but in the home not oftern at all
The rescue took Benji back and they stated he had rage form what i told them. they said he was going to be pts. i asked if there was any other options but they said they rehome dogs and once they've bitten they will be pts.

I thought this was not right! maybe they knew more than i did

what more could i have done ? i gave him 5 months

it still upsets me that he had to go-but we had no option to keep a dog that attacked us without any reason

I originally opened this disscussion to see if anyone else heard of or experienced cocker rage

Guess it's all finished now

Ps did you have any cockers?

It's unlikely that only one gene is involved in this condition - to date, the mode of inheritance has not been established and there are many theories out there on what Rage Syndrome is and what causes it. Linda who runs the Rage Information site as mentioned above would be the best person to contact for advice - incidentally, this rare condition is not confined to Cockers or even to show-type Cockers and has been seen in a number of other breeds. Rage should also not be confused with any other behavioural problem. Too often Cockers which have shown aggression are labelled (sometimes by vets) as having Rage Syndrome when they do not have the symptoms of Rage so it's important that a correct diagnosis is reached as there are many other causes of aggressive behaviour in dogs.

Jane

As you say that it's well known in other breeds can I ask has a Pomeranian ever had it? 

Not as far as I know but I'm not closely involved in collating info on breeds affected - there is a list on the site mentioned above which includes Springers, Bull Terriers, Golden Retrievers & Bernese Mountain Dogs but it's stressed that the numbers affected are small, as they are in Cockers.

Jane

I could have given the rage syndrome label to my Yorkie, but I wont. He shown all those behaviours when he was younger. Resourse guarding me and objects.  Attacking without growling or a cause resulting in quite bad wounds.  Hes now 1 year old and is loads better, most of the behaviour has stopped.  I cant explain why he stopped I think he has learnt we arent going to hurt him and theres no need to attack. 

I feel for people whos dogs have rage syndrome you must feel so hopeless in being able to change their behaviour. 

As stated Benji  was 7 years old with little history from the rescue home (wants to be the only dog in the family and doesn't like other dogs)
Fine if he felt threatened but i witnessed three unprovoked attacks-which understandably i felt nervous in my own home
when he sunk his teeth into my arm i was told by a vet dogs will never harm their master (wonder what he meant?)

My sister has always had 2 yorkies (very small ones) and recently lost one to old age-she immediately bought a pup (mistake?) the remaining yorkie is 10 years old and doesn't want to play.the pup you can imagine wont leave her alone (wonder what she would be doing if the older ppup wasn't there???)
also (like babies teething dogs go through it too) i have heard that puppies constantly bite and chew if not a person then doors, tables and practically anything they can get they're teeth into (our pup many years ago chew the house alarm wire, which she had dug up from under the carpet!) i counted myself lucky thats all she did.LOL
My sisters yorkies chewed her dining table legs-the table cost her £2000 TWO THOUSAND pounds and was only 3 years old!!!
Glad to hear at 1 year old he's loads better
Helen

this was a breeding fault (greedy persons syndrome it should of been called.) lots of people wanted golden and red. to get more light colour they were inter breed. iv only seen it in one dog. but it could of been from ill treatment it came out. he is now on some herbs and living in a one on one home and is kept carm, i cant remeber the herbs but he got them from a stall at crufts show  but they realy helped

i was also told it affected the one colour only cockers be it tan, brown or all black

Hope something happens to help these poor rage cockers after all its not their fault!

Helen

From information that I have always known.

The only carriers of this show cocker rage were apparant in solid black or solid gold. But as stated it is not a common condition. The one and only dog I heard of having it was unfortunately put to sleep, he would even attack himself!

Helen - how long haveyou had the cocker?     You've only just been posting about your b/c pup with parvo/distemper - is it not possible that the cocker may be incubating the same disease?    Did you discuss this with Vet/RSPCA?

Margot

Hi Margot
I bought the cocker from the rescue home in August he was up to date with his jabs (every year but needed Oct 2005) the vaccination passport was given to me. The resue centre did a booster jab for 2 things on the day i picked him up. I homed Benji for 5 months- he went back to the resuce three weeks ago. two weeks later i got Billy the BC pup who was 14 weeks old
When speaking to the vet i mentioned that i have lots of visitors (foxes, squirrels and hedgehogs) in my garden that most likely are carrying and speading lots of diseases, i told him that most ikely when Benji went out in the garden he brought viruses and diseases in my home
( i never thought of disenfecting  until i was told to do due to the distemper virus with Billiy- and i probably wont disenfect unless i need to- i certainly wouldn't disenfect having a puppy in the house)
the vet told me that he had the distemper virus at least a week if not longer which ruled out my garden/home as he got sick that night and was already underweight!
i have thought of many posibilities-anything i suppose can be possible???- saw the breeder this morning who gave me a refund and will hopefully be reimbursed for the vet payments next month
She has Billy's brother who she says is fine-playing, eating well, etc (she says she will now get his jabs done and keep him)
Billy and brother were both kept in her small kitchen (no bigger thatn a downstairs toiet space) the vet said that no doubt brother also has the virus and will not live more than a year (dont know how he can say this without seeing the pup!???)
in her lounge she also has a cross and 2 jack russels

Helen

It's important to remember that resource guarding is something a lot of dogs do, and it's not necessarily anything to do with rage. Rage seems to be entirely unexpected, full on attack, and both before and after it, the dog is normal in behaviour

Rage attacks tend to be directed towards the owner, but occasionally towards objects or other dogs (so it seems attacking other dogs isn't a well recognised part of Rage). During the attack, the dog's eyes appear glazed, pupils are dilated, and some people have reported the eyes are red in colour.Some dogs drool, vomit, defecate or urinate during or after an attack. Attacks are provoked by something simple such as the dog being patted.

Sometimes the dog's behaviour will change just before an attack, it may appear to be in a trance and to growl at nothing.The attack may last for up to 5 minutes, and after it the dog will appear exhausted, often sleep for half an hour, then be totally back to normal.

There is discussion amongst behaviourists/vets that it could be due to a seizure, either epileptic or non epileptic...Anthony L. Podberscek (mentioned in the link given) states that to date the best way of diagnosing is via an EEG, complex focal seizures would show during an attack (not sure how that could be done!) or, non epileptic seizures show abnormal activity between seizures rather than during. In the latter, there is no abnormal activity levels in the brain during an attack.

I've met one solid cocker who was showing Rage sumptoms, but it was apparent it was in fact the type of handling and training he had originally had, (he'd had several homes) and not Rage. I think in some cases it would be hard to tell.

Lindsay
x

I always remember my mum telling me about a cocker she had 40 years ago. Apparantly it was very aggressive at times and would lie at the bottom of the stairs not allowing anyone to pass. When my brother was born, the dog would lie under the pram and attack anyone who went near. She remembers taking the dog out for a walk when it was just a small puppy and a woman said to her 'what a beautiful pup, but my goodness you are going to have trouble with him!'  She said it was something to do with the shape of his head and she was adamant.
I heard about 'rage' many years later and wondered if this was what the problem was with her dog.
I never met him of course and have never owned a cocker and know very little about them. Just thought it might be of interest though? He was a solid red colour by the way, hence the name 'Rusty'.

I recently had a male golden cocker spaniel. He was lovely and kind and friendly
until, he was eating an egg one day and I didn't know. I patted
him and he sort of bit my finger. If he was on your bed and you came over
he would attack you. We had to put him down..... but I love/d that dog loads.

We are now trying again with
cockers and getting a female.

As mentioned this Rage Syndrome does not only happen with Cockers. I have taken in rescue GSDs for many years and have only had one failure,( and believe me that one failure still hurts me very much and I still wonder if I had done this or done that etc) She had been very badly treated and beaten and took a lot of TLC and work to show her that life can be good and without pain. With time she became very gentle and loving but began to have "episodes"  There would suddenly be an electricity in the atmosphere and she would attack anything and anyone (except me ) and then 5 minutes later she was loving again, as though she was not aware of what had happened. The vet explained that it was almost like going into a trance and once over they would not remember anything. These episodes became more frequent, my other dogs must have sensed the change in atmosphere and would all disappear from sight beforehand, so usually it was a piece of furniture that was ripped to pieces. The vet gave me written warning that WHEN, not IF she attacks and possibly badly injures someone, then I had been warned that in her opinion she was a danger and should be PTS. I still tried working with her hoping that we could overcome this problem, but one day I sensed the "electricity" and realised that she had the usual glazed look and  gone rigid and was ready to run at my little toddler grandson. I quickly grabbed the baby and turned my back on the dog to avoid eye contact and hoped she would not attack me, managed to get baby and me out of the room. That evening with the deepest regret I had her PTS. This was my first and hopefully last experience of Rage Syndrome. She had been through so much and really didn't deserve this but sometimes life stinks.

I worked with a golden cocker bitch a few years ago whos owners had become so afraid of her sudden aggression. To start with looked purely fear based with hiding under the chair then snarling if approached. The further through the session we got she could be touched all over looking much more relaxed then suddenly fly out to bite (she meant her bites too!). This had me thinking of rage syndrome ruling out causes. The final episode of the session was just a simple removing the half check collar well this took me 40 minutes to do as at varying stages she was flying out to bite whatever was in reach. At this stage I noticed a few of her lunges were not perfectly directed eg she missed my hand and bit the air.

I had already mentioned at the start wether she has been checked fully by the vet to which the answer was yes. After the collar incident I asked if her eyes were checked at the vet check and the answer was no. Cutting long story short she was found 2 weeks later by the vet to be nearly blind (not noticable by pysically looking at her) and the owner came to a decision on her own to have the dog pts.

Not relavent to this thread but yes this pup was from a 'farm in wales' say no more

I got my english cocker spaniel as a little puppy, at 5 weeks old and been in our family for 13 years until we had to pts because he was really suffering with cancer. He was not a rescue dog. I can say that he had rage syndrome. He was all black, just like his mum, she was a lot worse in terms of rage. We learned how to live with his episodes. All round a very sweet dog but sometimes he would attack any of us for no reason. He was not guarding anything like food or toys, he would just jump to bite all of a sudden, while petting him, or just staying under the desk when we were on the computer. You might say that he was trying to be dominant, he would be more agressive to males (like my dad or bf) or other dogs, but his rage episodes were way to agressive for such a small dog, too random and without particular reason.

My parents had grown up with cockers and when they were married and settled back in the UK decided to get another, they all lived to a good age no problem.

Just before they were moving back to Scotland their mini long dachsie died at 13 yrs old, no luck finding another dachsie then 1990 so they went for what they knew and got a black( all past ones had been golden) cocker male at 10weeks old, saw the dam but not the sire, she was very friendly not bothered by strangers touching her pups, she was black too.

Everything was fairly fine, possessive over his bed and food and didn't like certain dogs, my cocker when we came to stay and any bearded collies it saw, did very well at puppy training classes. In 1996 my Dad died and Bruce started having strange episodes where was dazed and staggering then he would be fine for several weeks, then he would fly at us in this rage if we asked him to do anything, took him to vets and bloods all normal and vet mentioned cocker rage that none of us had heard of before. In 2000 Mum decided to move back nearer me and moved 3 months later, Bruce settled in well still had lots of park/open land around like he was used to and loved it, the episodes were getting closer together and Mum was getting more scared, one evening she had put a board between them and back him into a room, he was now 12 yrs old and without saying anything to me took him to the vet and their only option was PTS so that is what happened, she still regrets to this day doing it but I tell her she gave him 6 yrs of trying and she had to think of her own safety.

In 2003 she got Penny her mini long dachsie as neither of us could trust getting another spaniel, my own one died at 16.5yrs old a year after I got my first mini long dachsie Rhuari who would get the old gent play for short periods and he would cuddle in to have a nap, he never had a nasty bone in his body.

Mum could never find the pedigree for me to see if there was a lot of inbreeding going on in Bruce's lines as the Vet mentioned it was thought to be the cause of cocker rage.

Your dog is displaying classic possession issues and fear aggression.

Before a vet can diagnose rage syndrome they would needto be a vet with a diploma in behaviour. Otherwise they ARE NOT qualified for the diagnosis. Simple as that!!

As for a rescue diagnosing a condition that is still under debate, are they qualified? Was it a canine behaviourist? Most rescues cannot afford a full time behaviourist and get others in to help or follow the lead of a member of staff who has some success with training with some of the dogs.Most rescues are too busy to deal with behaviour and half the time incorrectly get the breed type of dogs they rehome. So many colliecrosses turn out to be short cut collies, or the best I saw was a bischon cross....was a westie!!! How you can't tell that I don't know!!!

Before you write off a diagnosis, that I as a trainer/behaviourist would say to be completely incorrect, get a professional in for some help.

Eyes glazing over at words you have used could be as simple as the dog having a history and premediating an attack from the owner at the use of those words. No followed by a wallop!! Would lead a dog to defend itself. You have read too much into too little and got too many opinions from unqualified people. Find agood behaviourist and get help before going any further.

> Before a vet can diagnose rage syndrome they would needto be a vet with a diploma in behaviour. Otherwise they ARE NOT qualified for the diagnosis.
>that I as a trainer/behaviourist would say to be completely incorrect

What would make someone with a diploma in behaviour better able to diagnose something, which by its very nature is defined as a clinical disorder rather than a behavioural one?
Many vets will not trouble to obtain a seperate diploma but I think most would say they have quite a bit of experience in behavioural issues.

You have trained to understand dogs but we didn't know there were such things as dog behaviourists to contact and we did the best we could do for Bruce with the info we were given by more than one vet at more than one practice.

> You have trained to understand dogs but we didn't know there were such things as dog behaviourists to contact and we did the best we could do for Bruce with the info we were given by more than one vet at more than one practice.

If this was rage syndrome, and it sounds as much like it as any description I have heard before, then a behavourist could not have helped you so I do think you mother made the right decision.

Gosh this thread is soooo..... old.

I do agree that vets are not great at diagnosing behaviours rage syndrome isn't something the average vet can just diagnose like that and to be honest I wouldn't trust their diagnoses unless a specialist in neurology and diagnosing through an EEG and genetic testing.

Rage is a rare condition, hopefully eradicated today, I've not heard of any 'cases' for years, mind you as already said, if they ever were rage cases to begin with.

Rhodach with the age of your mum's Cocker whether training issues or true rage I couldn't live with a dog like that, I really couldn't, your mum did the kindest thing for Bruce and the safest for everyone living with him.

She should not feel guilty, for whatever reason the dog was unsound to be around not a quality anyone would want from a dog.

> I wouldn't trust their diagnoses unless a specialist in neurology and diagnosing through an EEG and genetic testing.
>

I thought it was still regarded as idiopathic so not sure that would be of any use.  I think that has always been the problem that we only have clinical symptoms to go on.

As I said she didn't give up on Bruce at the first hurdle, she battled on for 6yrs because between times he was the most loving and obedient dog but the rages were becoming daily, he had bitten her on the arm badly the day before she resorted to putting the board between them to get him to back off but he was still snarling at the board as Mum backed him into a room to calm down, we didn't use crates back then but it would have been hard to guide him into such a small space anyway. He could no longer go to the groomers and he had a long thick coat that needed doing every 3 to 4 months, it fell to me catching him on a good day but I used to have to give up half done and not get back to finish for a few days to a week which left him looking odd but better that than me getting bitten. 

Thankyou to those who like me think my Mum made the right decision and can stop feeling guilty all these years since.

I guess it depends on which research papers you read for cause, if I remember correctly Rage was first diagnosed by an English Behaviourist, (sorry forgotten his name, sure he'll be on google somewhere) and his diagnoses was that akin to an epileptic disorder which also goes along with the glazed over eye effect affecting the emotion related parts of the dog's brain past on genetically. So an EEG could possibly detect it just as it does with epilepsy.

I haven't looked into rage for many years, but that was the theory I knew existed at the time, perhaps that diagnoses has been written off, or we just don't really know what causes it.

> What would make someone with a diploma in behaviour better able to diagnose something, which by its very nature is defined as a clinical disorder rather than a behavioural one?

I think this is more relevant to the cases that are diagnosed with no investigations - such as the husky/malamute crosscross belonging to a friend of mine that was diagnosed with rage after a very brief consult and no tests.  My friend was advised to have him PTS but thankfully didn't, and called me instead - he doesn't have rage, he had extremely high stress levels due to his environment/the other dogs/owner handling.

If it's a genuine case then no, a behaviour diploma wouldn't be needed - but for vets like this one it might have made them think twice before giving out such a diagnosis and the recommendation.

A key indicator of rage syndrome is no identifiable trigger. It is very rare. If you can predict an episode with regard to context or triggers, chances are it is not rage.

Yes, I think that is a very good way to identify freelancerukuk,

Slightly off topic but I feel very similar. I had a working acquaintance very educated and a lovely man, he was tragically in a car accident and damage was caused to the emotional part of his brain, he was still a lovely man but all of a sudden he could just turn aggressive from nowhere, he lost his marriage and job due to this, it was tragic and a great loss to who was once a wonderful person, he too would just glaze over and be a different person.

Schizophrenia can be hereditary as we know, somehow rage works in a similar way causing emotional brain malfunction at times and can be genetically passed on.

I don't think we should be at all surprised that mental illness can be alive and well in animals just as much as in humans, whether genetic, caused by accident, at birth or in the way they are treated, thankfully it is much easier to control if genetic in tracing back lines and just not using them if identified.

Carrington, how awful that must have been terrible for him and his family.

There probably is a genetic basis to human psychopathy/sociopathy and a difference in brain structure that is possibly genetic but also environmental- I'm sure we agree these things are rarely just one or the other.

So, I'd make a distinction between rage syndrome and certain types of canine sociopathy, though there may be genetic and environmental factors in each. But, pushed I'd plump for rage being a type of seizure disorder whereas sociopathies can be a result of poor breeding/poor socialization/puppy trauma- all of which can re-shape neural pathways and subsequent behaviours.

It is interesting too that once upon a time human epilepsy would have been seen as mental illness/possession by the devil.

Stooge as usual has not taken my point at all. My point being the vet was not qualified to make such a diagnosis.

And lots of peole have diplomas and degreees in behaviour these days but it all depends on the diploma and degree. I have stopped a diploma course myself as was not worth the paper it was written on.

Carrington I agree don't think rage syndrome has ever been clearly proven as a defined disorder, seem to be 2 schools of thought on it, one believes it's behavioural the other believes it to be epilepsy based. Personally would say it combo of both as so rare. Like pyschopaths we have the ability within certain people but all of them harm others. The environment is the trigger partnered with physical issues.

> as usual

I beg your pardon!
I don't think you have taken my point personally
You have no idea what qualifications the vet has.  Many will take further studies in behaviour and will certainly have experience as many clients will present with difficulties in this area. 

>I have stopped a diploma course myself as was not worth the paper it was written on.

Perhaps a diploma is even less worth it to a vet
There maybe behaviourist with higher qualifications in their field but unless they also have clinical qualifications, it seems to me, they will always have a bigger part of the jigsaw missing than a vet.  Which, in case you did miss it, was my point.

I have had cockers for twenty years, always solid golden. I have found that they require quite an amount of work at a young age to ensure they are of good character. I personally think that due to their smaller stature and cute appearance, many inexperienced owners dont put as much effort into this aspect of their training as they would say for example a large breed dog. I have encountered many cockers who are deemed grumpy etc. some have quite bad behavioural problems but the cuase can generally be traced to owners. Rage syndrome is extremely rare but an option quickly mentioned when cockers show behavioural problems.