Hi John - Karen said you were the expert on showing labs so a quick question for you ...

If your looking to show a labrador what do you look for in shoulders and legs?

the labrador we want is not gonna be shown as her shoulders and legs arent what the breeders are looking for in as show dog
when looking at her though I have seen pictures of pedigree dogs that are being shown with legs more straight than the one in question.
So is it a personal breeder choice or a breed standard?Would you make the same decision with one of your labs? Just interested to know
i think she's looks perfect so it wouldnt change my decision either way

Hello!
While I'm not John, I thought I'd throw in my tuppence. The KC standard states under Forequarters for labrador retrievers: "Shoulders long and sloping. Forelegs well boned and straight from elbow to ground when viewed from either side." Interpretation is, of course, somewhat subjective, but I consider well sloping shoulders to be laid back (if you're looking at angles, approximating a 45 degree angle). Stating that the puppy's legs and shoulders are "too inline" is interpreted by my mind's eye as the shoulders being too straight and upright without enough angle. Angulation is important in a gundog in that shoulders which are too straight or without enough length in the upper arm will inhibit movement, not allowing the dog to reach out and cover ground efficiently, the stride being shorter and causing the dog to tire quicker than a dog with proper angulation.

One of the best books out on canine anatomy and movement is Rachel Elliott Page's "Dog Steps". Dr. Quentin LaHam is also another good source of information in understanding how structure effects the way each breed is supposed to move and work.

Good luck with your new puppy!

Hi Suzi.
Karen's got it slightly wrong in that I work mine rather than show. Sierra has covered the subject of angulation so well in her post that there is really nothing which needs adding, except to say start looking at angulation when you see a dog whilst out. If you get a chance to put your hands on a dog, feel the little lump on the top of the shoulder. Use the second finger of your hand. Then, keeping that finger on the top of the "Lump" put your thumb on the most forward point of the shoulder. Keeping your thumb in place rotate your hand until your second finger now rests on the point of the elbow. Looking at the angles shown here the Shoulder from the point to front should lay at approximately 45deg and from the forward point of the shoulder to the elbow again 45deg. the lengths should be approximately the same so the elbow is directly below the top of the shoulder. Different breeds have different angles. Some terriers have a very flat shoulder to allow them to "Go to Ground" after a fox. This makes them throw their front legs out in front in a high stepping manner.
I'm sure you show people can do a far better job of describing angulation than me and I’ll be interested to hear the "Professional" interpretation.
One last point, don't judge the dog in isolation! A dog is more than just angulation. The standard required to win top honours in the show ring is so high that in all possibilities your puppy is an extremely good dog!

Regards, John

John,

What do you mean slightly wrong im never wrong :D LOL

Karen

Course your right Karen, It's that silly old fool that don't know what he's talking about! And he's locked the drinks cabinet again!

J

J,

How dare he lock the drink's cabinet that is a SIN

Karen

lol
and I thought i was weird

thx for everyones input, my mum has this paranoid thought that all dog breeders are evil and want to sell you the runt of the litter (my mum hasnt visited the kennels can i add & doesnt have experience of dealing with any show kennel for any breed)
... ever had one of those days were your mum just wont listen to you?

i maybe she's just worried about something she's seen on tv i dont know!

**chuckling** It doesn't get better even as you get older!!

Remember that the most important things are balance and realizing that glaring faults cannot be offset by excellent points. In other words, the best shoulders in the world will not win if the dog has a long body, snipy muzzle, etc.

The PRIME law that anyone who shows dogs should remember is that there are no perfect dogs. It is very easy to fault judge (i.e., state all the dogs faults) and far more difficult to objectively look at the overall dog and measure against the standard.

John has discussed the reason for differences in shoulder angulation very well. Same thing occurs in the rear angulation, which is why foxhounds are not structured the same as siberian huskies or german shorthaired pointers. Each dog evolved in accordance with necessary job fulfillments and as such the structure was modified over time.

You may want to tell your mom that no two people look for the same things in dogs. When I was partnered for years in a show handling kennel with another woman, we found that we both looked for different types of dogs, even though the overall structure was the same. I cannot abide a snipy nosed, small headed GSP and she prefers her dogs to be more refined. Hence, I would pick the more substantial dogs (without sacrificing elegance) from a litter and she would look at daintier dogs. Different strokes -- what may not have suited the breeder's 'type' may very well be your successful show dog.

Hope this helps.

Every day!

i just think certain breeders aim very high in their standards for show dogs

I think I'm a good judge of character and believe this to be true in my case

my mum must think by 'a dog breeder' it means someone who makes their 20 dogs whelp every 6 months and sell to any old person
whereas any responsible breeder breeds for themselves and makes sure all of their pups has a good home!
Pessimistic people eh

maybe i would listen to her more if she had ever owned a pedigree dog lol

I think the crux of the matter is that the breeder chose to keep the puppy for 7 months! She must have thought it was a very good specimen to be worth running on for that length of time. If it was rubbish she would have sold it on a long time ago.

Best wishes, John

At the risk of repeating myself,I have said already that the breeder you are dealing with is a very reputable kennel,they are well known in this country and highly respected and I I know they would not be pleased at what I am seeing here,surely your mother went with you to see the puppy and if she felt they were not decent people she would not have been buying the puppy from them,If they think she is unsuitable for showing then I would think they know what they are saying. (could be wrong)but I imagine they are selling hher for a pet at a pet price,you are looking at a lot of money for a show quality puppy,and they usually keep the best themselves,also repeating myself there is a limit to what you say on these boards and you may want contact me through email.or telephone and I will call you back. G.Fryer (Fullwell Labradors)

Well for what its worth I think Suzi ( I want a puppy )

is being very wise for asking questions about her chosen breed and what she should and shouldn't be looking for.

I wish more people were like Suzi and then maybe we would not have such a problem with rescue.IMO.

Karen

Yes I agree
Karen I know its good to ask questions and I among amany have offered advice to her, but I would be worried if I was selling a puppy to someone whos Mum wasnt a hundred percent trusting of me,and also I feel that actually naming names on here is a bit iffy (sorry but thats my opinion) These breeders are really nice people and if she has any doubts would help her and advise her ,I wish I had a puppy from them I can tell you.

At the end of the day Suzi's mum doesn't know these people and obviously isn't aware that just because a dog doesn't turn out quiet like the breeders expected the dog is still beautiful and more importantly healthy.Maybe she should be talking to the breeders concerned.Mattie she doesn't have your knowledge of the dog world or these people and although I know you are only offering help she doesn't know you either should she just go on trust? Asking for advice when you aren,t sure from as many sources as possible is surely the sensible thing to do.Gillian

Quite right she doesnt know me do you know anyone on a message board? thats why I gave her my email and number so any worries at all I could have helped her with happily, and I only was trying to help her, its the naming of the kennels that worried me,anyway I shall bow out of the discussion now, nuff said.

Mattie, I really appreciated your input dont get me wrong! to know that you know they are good breeders meant alot to me and i wouldnt have named them if i thought anything bad of them
i wasnt questioning the breeders because my mind is already made up after meeting them, i was just asking about labrador breeders in general & thought that john bred them for showing (my mistake)

Mattie - i didn't realise it was wrong to mention an affix and have edited my messages to remove it

nothing i have said is a bad reflection on the kennel - and nothing i've said was meant to be any sort of reflection

As this is a discussion board the only thing i wanted was to discuss labradors in general and mentioned my mums opinion on dog breeders as a joke not a reflection on the kennel or on my opinion at all

sorry you took it that way

Dera Suzi,
I think that sometimes we can read things as heated when they are just words,I was worried as I know the people involved and knew they would not like to be discussed on the internet,not for any other reason than they would feel uncomfortable with it,they have been breeding and showing a long time and are championship show judges,and of the older generation their reputation goes before them,I'M sorry we didnt get to chat when we had the chance
I wasnt being bolshi I was just trying to help,I know when you are on these boards we dont know who we are talking to so thats why I posted my name and affix,I am not a kennels as such all my dogs live in the house and I show very little these days as I am very involved in rescue,and showing pales into insignificance compared to that,I hope it all goes well and my offer is still there if I can help in any way you can contact me.

Mattie,
I understand your concerns but when i posted i didnt think of that aspect i was just proud to be getting a pup and even prouder that you considered the kennel one of the best in the country
I've deleted all references so only one left is one on your message under "general" '7 month old lab' if you wanna remove the affix

I know the breeders are lovely people and didnt ever expect anyone to think otherwise which im sure they dont

I have your number and the only reason i havent rang is that I wasnt worried about anything inparticular i just wanted to start a discussion to see what lots of people thought. If i had a problem linked with the dog i want i would discuss it with the kennel as you already mentioned i should - but i've never had any problem with anything i was just discussing the subjects i was curious about.

I apoligise if anything i said looked bad and for mentioning the affix

it was all said light hearted and without intent to offend anybody

Suzi,
Nothing you or anyone else has said on this board reflects poorly on the breeders. I took your comments about your mother to be typical 'mother' comments -- heck, my mother doesn't understand to this day why anyone would 'pay good money to buy a dog that is probably weak from being inbred to death.' Now I suppose that thin-skinned breeders could take affront at that and leap to the defense in breeding practices, health, etc. Me? I simply chuckle at a mother's comments and see it as a way that mothers have to remind us that they are supposed to be more sensible than we are (regardless of whether it may or may not be true!).

In any event, I am sure that all really successful breeders have had far worse statements bandied about other than placing a puppy that they decided did not make their showing criteria. Will all those breeders who have highly successful breeding programs and show careers and have *not* heard far worse rumors about themselves please step to the right? **chuckling as she notices that there is no more room on the right!**

You are right in asking questions about structure, movement, behavior, potential problem areas to look for, etc. To me it shows a highly intelligent person who is determined to do the absolute best that they can. Your questions were all politely framed and did not reflect poorly on the breeder. As far as asking all your questions from the breeder, please do -- but also remember that second and even third opinions when viewed with an open mind will simply give you a better base on which to form your *own* opinions and beliefs.

Very, very few of us started out with the drop-dead-gorgeous-stunning-movement show dog. Most of us started out with pets and got bit by the show bug; our second and third dogs (and in some cases, more) reflect our growth and knowledge. (and, no, before there are negative posts, I did not mean that we replace our first dogs, quite often they are the closest to our hearts because we learned so much together).

Enjoy your dog and even if she doesn't turn out to be a whirlwind show dog, she may very well prove to be a good learning point and you'll have fun together.

I totally agree with everything that Sierra has said Suzi Enjoy your dog.

cheers lol:)

my mums been uptight about getting a dog since we had to put our 16/17 yr old to sleep a few years back she's scared it'll happen again i guess!
but then again if a stray turned up on her doorstep she would be the first to feed it every day! We're all softies when it comes to dogs arent we?