Two months ago I had a disobedient but generally happy young dog...(apart from the dislike of some other dogs). I decided after reading various books that we had a problem with pack ranking. Started a pack ranking reduction programme on Ollie who didnt really improve with his obedience, but seemed to gradually go moody, sulky and generally down, with no energy and no zest for life. A week ago when I started worrying about his thyroid I relaxed the rules a bit (feeling a bit sorry for him), and on tuesday paid £40.00 for a T4 test that turned out to be normal. Since then Ollie has had more energy than he has had for ages, previously on walks he has just trotted along beside me but for the last two days he has been charging round like a puppy again and has even met 2 new dogs today, with no snapping..??!!
I cant belive the change in him...
Is it because of the pack ranking thing being relaxed?
Or maybe he does not want to go to the vets again
On reflection I would rather have a (partly) disobedient happy dog than a unhappy/no zest for life(still partly disobedient one).
Any body any ideas why this has happend.....

Hello Nicki,

I will try and summarise the situation as follows:-

If your dog is being disobedient and naughty, it is your general control and authority which is sadly lacking.

Now I do not know what your method of 'Pack Reduction Programme' was, but if it did not include or start to improve his obedience, then I would not feel too impressed with the programme anyway!

Dogs are 'programmed' to need someone to be the Leader, who will make all the necessary decisions, take control of the 'Pack' and be someone to respect and pay attention to. There are plenty of 'novelty' ideas out there, but good basic confident control is what is required. Equally, consistency - it is no good sometimes expecting an appropriate response and the next, turning a blind eye. Your dog simply learns that sometimes you mean what you say and sometimes you don't. (Why should he therefore take notice every time)!

Without knowing you or your dog I would suspect that the reason he started becoming somewhat sulky is because you started showing some kind of authority, and he was simply showing that he objected to being told what to do, (afterall he has been used to doing his own thing). You then apparently eased off, and hey presto he has got his own way again)!

Unfortunately, if you do not bring him into line, he will gradually work on the 'give an inch - take a mile'. Owners do not notice how much inattention or naughtiness is occurring until the problem is a big one.

I would be interested to know what programme of training you were putting into action. But if it was general better control and attitude and working on the obedience, then if you had persisted, he would have come through the sulky stage, and suddenly considered what an important person you are, someone to take notice of, firm but fair, and begin to enjoy it (very similar to a spoilt child, who then has a Mary Poppins enter his life, objecting at first and then quite soon discovering the joys of good manners).

Any dogs at my Club whose owners have been rather weak with their control, once they are guided to become more confident and learn how to teach and expect better behaviour, their dog who before practically ignored them, then resented being told what to do (by someone who sadly the dog had little respect for) emerges into a happy, relaxed paying attention individual, who now sees the Owner not as Woody Allen, but a likeable confident Clint Eastwood/Mary Poppins!

Regards to you both,
Denise.

Ouch...
Woody Allen...thats me..
Read books by John Fisher and Jan Fennel, and the rules they give we have been following..
Also do 20 mins lead walk/obedience every day...
Been to three different training classes, one the trainer used physical violence (apdt member) another, when Ollie was a puppy told me that
if I was to if i came down to hard with the discipline I would spoil the good natured sweet puppy I had (apdt member). The other was good, but was on till 10.00 in the middle of nowhere on a farm, too late for my son to stop up..
As you can probably imagine my faith in trainers isnt very much...
I can see what you mean, but why was he like this for so long, and so bad that I took him to the vets..
Believe me we have tried everthing, over the last two years...

Guess I will just forever be Woody Allen
Thanks for the advice though..

Hi
Sorry Denise, but I cannot agree with you that a dog is naughty or disobedient all because the owner isn't strict enough. My Terrier is extremely disobedient and I can assure you we are strict and 'leading' with him. He is a wanderer, and doesn't listen to us at all when out. I won't go on, but in Nicky's and anyone else with lively and naughty dogs defence, I cannot agree. I feel that breeding, and born personality are stronger factors.
Emily

Thanks Emily.....
I feel a bit better now...
I felt like a complete falure when I read the post by Denise..

Basic good manners are down to training, but personality will determine how effective the training will be. Some need very little, some will always be looking to challenge or to work out a way of getting one over on you.

The cleverest dogs for instance are not neccesarily the most easy to train, though the qyuickest to learn.

Having a naturally think for itself independant minded breed I find that training and obedience to commands are a continuous give and take and test of wits!

Hi again Woody and Emily (only kidding

Dogs obviously have their various character traits and they also have their 'moments'!! However, any general disobedience or frustrating naughtiness, is I must emphasise down to lack of proper control and authority.

Now this is the tricky bit, it is not simply 'strictness' - (marching around giving orders, being stern) does not achieve control. How many of us remember having teachers that would try to impress the Class by being very stern, demanding that they would not tolerate this or that, but still the Class 'played up' - we knew it was simply bravado on the part of the Teacher, who did not truly feel in control his/herself. Then there was the teacher, who hardly had to say a word, he/she maintained discipline through self assurance and calm control!

This is where dog training is not easy but VERY interesting. It is not simply the obedience exercises, but yes, let's consider them. Practising daily helps develop the rapport with your dog. Now it is no good just going through the exercises blindly, you must be looking to TRAIN the dog, are you simply treading water or moving the dog forward each time? i.e. develop the focus and attention, it is no good if your dog is just going through the 'routine', afterall he now knows what to do, but is he 'working for you'? If he is not watching you how is he paying attention. (If someone is talking to me, I look at them)!

Next heelwork, don't just go through the formality of "Heel", start working on 'Statics' as well (left and right).

The Recall, are you doing 'angled recalls' - and do them on lead, do not allow the dog to go wrong, guide and show him the correct position and exactly what you want. When I can eventually stand DIRECTLY in front of my dog (but with my BACK to him) and then say "COME" and get a perfect Recall, then I know he can do it from ANY angle.

When you say DOWN or SIT, are they in the dog's time? Don't feel grateful because the dog has complied but slowly, make it fast - how YOU want it!

Now indoors, for instance, do you have control by sending the dog outside a room, (not as a punishment), and he remains outside WITHOUT the need to close the door? This is an important exercise, one which I teach the Beginners during their second week, because there may well be a need to quickly remove a dog from a room on occasion, but it is equally a very good control exercise where you can send the dog from a room, and later 'invite' him back into 'your space'!

Do you make your dog lie down quietly in the Living Room, in a place of YOUR choosing for a period of time? Most dogs have particular areas that they will settle (not just their bed), but why not tell your dog to lie down and indicate the area yourself - good control!

Do you repeat yourself? - Listen and check. If you do, you are not only teaching your dog to 'ignore you', but equally training it to respond on the second, third or fourth command!

When your dog is resting quietly in the Living room, and you are sitting comfortably too, with your dog just a couple of feet away from you, do you 'Call your dog to Come'? Most folk don't, because there is 'no need'. However, there is every need. This helps and trains the dog to learn that when you command "COME" he gets up and comes to you no matter where or how short the distance, and immediately. Try it, you will most probably find he will at first just look at you as if to say "What".

When you do STAYS, if they are very reliably good, do you now have the dog occasionally on lead, gently take up the slack and pull gently on the lead and collar after having given the command "Stay", your dog should then visibly resist, having been told to Stay!

On the subject of coming when called. When you are out, and you call your dog, and he comes running in, is he simply 'paying lip service' to you, i.e. he dashes up, and then away again, or just runs by. Your dog should run up and LOOK AT YOU, to find out WHY you have called him.

Will your dog stop ANY unwanted behaviour when you say "NO" first time?

All the time you are pleased and satisfied with the little bit of 'reasonable' behaviour or obedience, and/or feel grateful that your dog has complied in some way, why should he give more?

There are so MANY areas of training and learning, which is where finding a 'good Instructor' helps enormously. When I tell someone that their problem is lack of control in the home, they do not initially agree, thinking that the dog is very good. Yes he is, but he is just living a parallel life to them, doing what he wants to do, and being told "good boy" for doing it! When I then do a 'home visit', they are amazed at the areas lacking! - (and equally amazed at the difference
a few changes will make).

This 'written word' is sadly impossible to try and get across the enormous areas of dog watching, recognising, learning and teaching. It is so vast, and time, commitment and dedication are the only answer. Never give up and accept 'that will do' - strive to constantly improve yourself and your dog!

I could go on........ I've said enough (without hopefully boring you).

All the best,
Denise.

Denise..
I practice all this stuff with Ollie, but here are a couple of things he does (or dosn't as the case may be)
I put him on a long lead, and practice recalls both in the house and outdoors, we have these perfect, but as soon as the lead is of, and something such as fox poo to roll in, or something yummy to eat is found, Ollie goes deaf...
In the house, I can take toys from him np, I can put my fingers in his food bowl np, I can take a bone away from him np. I have a 10 yr old son who can do the same np. He can be left for a few hours every day without wrecking the house.
When I spoke to someone recently about him disliking some other dogs, i was told that a truly dominant dog has no need to go through the displays that Ollie does and it could actually be a lack of confidence, so to put into practice a rank reduction programme could actually reduce his confidence more....although for the last few weeks he has been good with all new dogs he has met (he has lots of 'friends' but these are ones he has known since being a puppy).
Maybe Ollie just has more 'moments' than other dogs.

Thanks for taking the time to type out the above post...

Woody

Nicki,

May I ask why you are training on a long lead in the house? - and how exactly are you using it indoors and outdoors?

Also, do you train with the use of treats?

Denise.

Nicki,

Dogs are pack animals. Dogs that are not part of the pack, i.e. new dogs, may be warned to keep away from the dogs. Perhaps this explains why Ollie is friendly to dogs he has known since a puppy and not to other dogs.

Michael
22 June 2002

The long lead/line I use indoors/outdoors so I can reinforce a recall if I need to during training. You mentioned in your earlier post about being able to call your dog to you at any time indoors/outdoors and obviously I need to be able to reinforce this. It isnt on all the time.
I had always trained using treats until someone told me he was grown up now and as he knows how to do what is being asked,I should stop using them....If I ask him to do something and he knows he will get something out of it I will get perfect results every time otherwise its about 75 %

regards...
Woody

Dear Woody,

.... and thereby lies your problem...... Your boy is trained for HIS personal reward NOT to work for YOU!

As you say in your Post, he knows now what to do, but you must remember you have trained him to EXPECT a personal reward for the required response (not his fault). So why expect him now to respond just to please you! NB. Also notice the subtle difference that you 'ask' a dog - I give a dog a 'command' (there is no choice as far as the dog is concerned).

I train without treats, using authority and praise. (For instance, when told to "Watch me" my dogs and those I train will watch because they have been TOLD to, not because I am holding a treat near my face, because then they would really be watching the treat)!

The use of the line indoors should be unnecessary, your dog knows you are relying on it. If you need to use a line indoors because your dog will not respond immediately, then obviously you will have little chance outdoors!

Unfortunately, these methods of training cannot mix, (authority training and treat training - it would be like trying to follow a recipe using metric and imperial - two entirely different phlosophies)!

Kindest regards,
Denise.

Denise,
If he knows I rely on the long lead, then it seems I am in a catch 22 situation. I cannot give a recall command and reinforce it every time without the occasional use of the long lead..
I know of very few dogs who will respond immediately EVERY time. (One to be exact).
We must just have badly behaved dogs (and owners) in this area
I will continue my training without the use of treats......and by the time Ollie is 10 and I am grey...... I may have cracked it...

regards
(forever) Woody

Ok, Woody, let's attempt to achieve a Mary Poppins status:-

This 'Recall' on the line, (now I am talking garden/indoors), you just mean a general return to me, not a 'Formal Recall' correct?

Secondly, when you do call your dog from the garden or from somewhere indoors and you have him on this long lead, please tell me how you are using it, i.e. do you say "Come" and reel him in towards you?

By the way, does he automatically ignore you when you call garden/indoors when not on the line?

If you would like further assistance, please answer these three queries, but if not, then obviously don't - I won't take offence!

Denise.

Hi again both!
Denise, what happens, like in my case, where some days the dog does everything first time, no treats. Other days, when called, will run further away, ar entirely ignore you, when you have the tastiest morcels known to man in your hand!. He has been known to wander off for up to an hour, not doing anything in particular, and not really caring if he can't see us, because he's so clever, he can always just make his way back to the car in his own time. We do all of the above excercises, calling him back at random, praising and releasing. most days we have ten minutes where we sit down, he lies next to me until I allow him to move. We train for at least 15 mins a day, and if he fancies it he'll be brilliant in training class. If he doesn't fancy it, he wanders about the hall, not really caring if I ignore him, catch him, shout at him, praise him!!, whatever! The trainers at class agree that I couldn't do any better with him, he's 2.5 now, and in his own world! My other dog has had exactly the same treatment, and she's fine! hence my view that it's not all down to the owner. I'm certain that had he gone to less strong willed owners, he'd have been in and out of rescue like a yoyo by now, but I know he loves us as much as we love him!
Emily
ps sorry about the length, I always get carried away!

Hello Emily,

The reason: You have obviously trained and use treats! - You said in your Post, "even when I have the tastiest morsels - he won't come back"!!!!!!! Sorry, but you cannot mix and match - either the dog learns to respond (if he wants) for a treat, or you train with authority.

I'm going to run through your Post:-

You sound dedicated to wanting to achieve and do well, however, although you say you 'train' the dog for 15 minutes a day, are you actually WORKING HIM? It is no good just running through the routine, and then giving yourself a pat on the back, thinking you are doing the right thing (no offence mean't by the way). Think about each exercise you do, are you trying to progress it, get better attention, have the dog more precise, have him respond fast etc...

(My Intermediate Group sometimes take a bit of stick off me (but we do have a laugh too) - I will sometimes rebuke them that they look like their out for a country walk, and not paying sufficient attention to their dog's responses!!

You say sometimes he is brilliant at Class and sometimes not, but again this is sadly his choice.

The 'Control Down' is excellent, (which is what I call it, and sounds similar to what you are doing) - EXCEPT, why do you have the dog next to you at the same time? I will answer that for you, because you think or know he will move - right? If that is the reason, what are you really achieving? So believe in yourself and your dog more, have confidence and determination. When you place your dog into the Down next time, do not get down with the dog, stand up straight and move slightly away, do not look directly at the dog as if to check what he will do (you will appear unsure and he will know it)! If he even thinks of moving, respond quick with the command "NO, DOWN", and give him a shove at the same time to make your point, then quietly tell him "Good Boy Down".

Once he is lying there without attempting to move, walk away, do not look over your shoulder (you will appear unsure and again he will know it)! Perhaps sit down (on an armchair) and look confident. Again, if he goes to move, dash to his side with the same command of "No, Down" and the shove, and again "Good Boy Down".

Do not keep your hand on him. When he has remained in position for a few minutes go over and 'release him'.

You also say that your other dog has had EXACTLY the same training and is fine. So why have you not altered yourself to the level of this dog's requirements? I have had to be very strong with some dogs and simply firm with others, but no matter who or what they are, the basic strategy and methods remained the same. Guide the dog and praise. Be consisitent and persistent. Be firm and in control at all times, but give bags of praise when required. Interact with the dog indoors, getting him to respond to different commands etc.

However, I will repeat you cannot mix and match the methods.

Hope this is of some help to you,
Denise.

Hi again Denise
When I said exactly the same training, I didn't mean literally exactly the same move for move! I am gentler with my other dog because she responds well to happy gentle commands, whereas Morris responds to firm, stern commands. I try to expand on his training and teach him new commands, though admit I'm running out slightly! (he will sit, lie, stand, change position at a distance lie down at a distance, speak, roll over, can't beg coz his bum's too small!, walk on back legs, jump for a treat, wait to take a toy/treat, stay for a period with me out of the room, which I'm trying to extend, change position out of sight! (fiance checks!) ) any other suggestions gratefully received. I do try to develop these commands. I don'ty always treat him because I think that it isn't good to train for rewards 100% of the time and thaty one day I may not have a treat on me and really need him to respond, and it makes life interesting for him not knowing! plus I would expect him to respond to treats and not lack of, but it doesn't always work that way. HJe doesn't come back outside either, but I would rather he was getting the excercise as if he doesn't have a good run, he turns into a nightmare, stealing things and in puppyhood ended up at the vets after eating poisonous or toxic substances innumerable times. he will stay and wait for me to put his lead on though.(mug of water thing wouldn't work, I'm a really bad aim, and he's too fast!). He won't fetch, give up toys, jumps on visitors, and a whole host of other things too, but he's an angel compared to a year ago, so we put up with alot of it! we're currently working on his rank on lead walks, as he's started growling at other dogs when my puppy's with us, so a friend comes to walk behind me with him. Oh the joys of dog ownership!!
Emily

Hi Emily,

This is sadly the proof that the 'written word' is insufficient with immense limitations! Meeting with an Owner and dog, explaining, watching and guiding, teaching and demonstrating, are the only real answer.

The whole essence of your reply highlighted the complete differences of outlook, methods, training, and personal attitude and understanding of good manners and obedience.

Now, although it is fine and dandy that you are teaching your boy tricks (no problem with that), except they are simply tricks and not obedience exercises. The 'Training' I mentioned, is the dog learning to WORK for you - not perform a trick, i.e. heelwork, statics, focus and attention, stays, retrieve, recall, control downs, side stepping, body checks, finishes, weaving, etc etc.

All these above exercises are initially worked ON LEAD - this is your control, and the dog knows! How often have your heard folk say that their dog walks better to heel OFF LEAD? This is because the dog is working for HIMSELF and not for the Owner. Afterall, if he/she was doing good heelwork off lead, he should equally be doing good heelwork ON LEAD!

Most of what you mentioned (apart from tricks) was the dog responding from a distance, and not working under your control on lead.

The areas that you SHOULD be working on, i.e. authority and good manners in the home - you are not - i.e. "coming back, jumping on visitors, give up toys and a whole host of others things too" (as you said in your Post) - preferring instead to concentrate on tricks! General obedience in the home, i.e. listening and paying attention, responding to you, reacting to whatever, in a manner that is acceptable to you, are just as important as the other obedience training mentioned above.

You even say that you would rather he has the extra exercise when he does not return to you, otherwise he is a nightmare to live with!

Emily, you are clearly living with him on HIS TERMS, and are doing things for an easy life, rather than addressing the necessary areas of concern.

Could I just suggest three books that you may find of interest and help:- "Whose the Boss" by Val Bonney, "Reading the Dog's Mind" by JOHN & MARY HOLMES (make sure it is these authors), and "The Truth About Dogs" by Stephen Budiansky.

Regards,
Denise.

I think I'll have to agree to differ with you Denise, If you're ever in Swansea, let me know as I don't think anyone could understand my little man without meeting him, and know that your suggested methods would simply make him lose any trust in me, because he's very suspicious of humans at the best of times(not because of me I hasten to add).
Emily
ps. easy life- I wish! and nightmare to live with in the sense that he's like a coiled spring with ridiculous amounts of energy which he redirects into naughtyness(physical, not mental), I fully stand by my belief that he needs the excercise as he is a lively active breed of dog.

Hello Emily,

No problem at all, and thank you for replying as well.

With all good wishes to you both,
Denise.

HI Emily

Sorry to butt in, I wondered what breed of dog you have?

If it's any help, here's a bit of basic advice re giving up toys which works with most dogs if they are keen on toys in the first place, and if not too much of an issue has been made out of them keeping their toys.

Set up a bit of a play session with your dog; a tuggy or whatever he likes, but make sure the toy you use is not his top toy - ie not his most exciting or best toy. It should be a bit less than his middle toy, enough to get him excited but not too much.

When you are into the game, and hopefully your boy is showing signs of getting very slightly bored, from behind your back, bring out his fav. toy. Most dogs immediately swop to their fav. toy and will after a time readily give up one for another.

After a while you can introduce the command you want to use, maybe "Give" or "Drop".

This is pretty much basic advice, and so much depends on the dog, owner and all the rest, but it might work, bearing in mind i have no idea what your dog is like. There are also other ways but this often works with the sort of dog i imagine yours to be.

Obviously it is a first step, and if it works you will need to gradually ensure you can take any toy off him at anytime without the substitute toy, but this will come in time.

HTH a bit

best wishes
Lindsay

ps I am trying to stop posting on here, but keep seeing posts i want to reply to, so feel free to mail me privately, click onto my name and my addy comes up. Have fun!

Denise.
Yes I mean a general return to me.... I'm not sure what you mean by a 'formal recall'
Yes I say come and 'reel him in'
No he dosn't automatically ignore me, if he are outdoors and he is doing something really interesting like trying to get in the dustbin, or chasing the cat this is when he ignores me. Indoors it is when he is snoozing, or in his bed.
When we are on a walk (not on long line) and he finds a friend, something to roll in or some food, he will ignore me then (but not all the time)
I hope you don't mind me asking another question but;
What is your opinion on the Jan Fennel theory that you must ignore your dog for a few minutes after reuniting ?
Do you thing this is necessary?

Hope Ive answered your questions...and you can now help me become Mary Poppins :D
Regards Woody

Hello M.P.

Now I must remind you, all my advice is based on a dog learning without treats and with authority. If you are going to try, be prepared, he will go very sulky on you, - cos no treats, and being told what to do etc). However, remain consistent and persistent, and do not give way, he will come through, and you will see changes in his behaviour, for the better!

The 'general return' is what you quite rightly need (Formal Recall is the dog sitting directly and precisely in front of you - for obedience competitions).

Yes, I guessed you were 'reeling him in' - and what use do you think that is? A bit like telling him to stay outside and then closing the door, well obviously he will therefore stay outside, he has no choice you have closed the door!

Next time he is on a long lead/line. Call his name positively, and "COME", then give that line a firm jerk in your direction, and let it loose again, if he starts coming towards you, encourage him "what a good boy, yea" (and sound excited). If he stops or does not respond, give a firm jerk again and "COME". He cannot go anywhere, but you are making him understand that he comes to you (no choice in the matter) under his OWN STEAM! When he reaches you, tell him what a clever dog he is and let him go off again. Every now and then repeat the exercise. He will eventually learn to return immediately on the first jerk, and then later when simply being called.

Right, now when in the garden, start automatically taking a mug of cold water out to the garden when you can SEE that he is otherwise engaged! Now CALL HIM, be at a distance that the moment you say his name and "COME", if he does not respond, you chuck the water at his head. What a shock for him, as far as he is concerned, you have been able to reprimand from a distance! Now the very moment that water hits his head, you repeat his name and "COME"! He will probably come to you all sheepish fashion, amazed at what has just happened, you encourage him sweetly as he comes to you, "Good boy Come, there's a clever lad".

Always, always go out with your mug of water, eventually, he will come straight away. He will learn unpleasant things happen when he doesn't, and will be in awe of you, that you can chastise from a distance!

Indoors, when he is lying down just a few feet away from you, say his name and "Come", at present he is ignoring you, or he may just look at you (after all you are just a few feet across the room) - but this is the whole point, he must learn that come means come, return to you no matter what distance is involved. So, he ignores, you just get up confidently, go over to where he is, give a smack to his body, (it is the kind of smack that technically says "yes I am talking to you")! Except you say "COME" very firmly, and turn round and walk straight back to your chair without a backward glance, he will get up looking confused, and start walking in your direction, you simply encourage with a nice voice, "there's a good boy COME".

Always do this when you KNOW he will not want to move, and therefore help him to learn that he must!

Re: Jan Fennel and ignoring the dog for a few minutes when re-uniting. The idea is to help reduce any undue fuss when initially LEAVING your dog, making it casual and natural, and equally on returning making your appearance again simply quiet and casual without causing the dog to over-react either from you leaving or returning, (or being miserable when you leave and anticipating excitement when you return). Thereby accepting both in a nice laid back manner.

EQUALLY, why would you the 'Boss' make a BIG greeting to one of the Pack, it is for them to watch and read you. So just take off your coat, or put the kettle on, and then when your dog comes to you, (you should not need to go to him)! say "hello sunshine how are you then" or similar!

I hope this helps you. Trying to train over the internet is not ideal. Apart from trying to be sure I have explained it properly, there are so many other areas involved too. However, every little helps when it comes to training dogs.

All the best,
Denise.

Denise,
Thanks very much for the advice (though the bit about the mug of water made me laugh). New training starts from now, mug at the ready. It's amazing how many different views there are on training, but yours, to me make a lot of sense......so here I go....watch this space.

Regards

Woody (soon to be M.P.....I hope)

I read your post yesterday with great interest as it all started to make real sense. I HAD been praising my pup when she was merely giving me lip service and indeed she did used to run past me and I was pleased she had made an effort!! I spent yesterday following your advice to the letter ( I had not trained with treats anyway) and she had a few taps to her rump and a couple of squirts of water when failing to come. I felt terrible as she seemed to have little idea what I was up to and I did think I was being cruel but persisted anyway with good results by the end of the day indoors. Today in the park it was all put into practice and I was amazed at the results. She returned each time I called except the first (when she got a squirt from my a water pistol and swiftly wised up) . I even managed to get her to return when in full flight towards another dog (which I would never have been able to do before yesterday's training) and kept her by my side with the command stay whilst the other dog walked quite close to and around us. I am amazed. Denise, please, please provide some more advice or even better, write a book!! I notice you say that you must always move the excercise on, so what should I be looking to do now? ps. my pup is a six month old border terrier.

Trying to make a general observation here.....but isn't it just so easy when the dog is just too too scared to disobey?

I think in training we all have to make a few decisions; do we feel it fair to just go over and smack a dog because it doesnt' come?

It is easy to make a dog so scared of its owner it will do anything just to keep in its owner's good books, but haven't many of us seen dogs who are heavily brown nosing just because of this? Dogs who seem just so, so attentive but in reality are scared ********. ( I don;t mean all attentive dogs are scared in case anyone thinks i do! Far from it).

My dog has a very good recall - away from galloping horses, cows and deer. I dont smack her. I just work bloody hard at motivation with toys and keep training. It is so rewarding. i love it.

Smack any dog i train because i have no other idea how to get a recall? Huh! Sorry! There's a word for it, and it's not training. Don't kid yourself it is.

Lindsay

(who may have to stop posting again on here in the verynear future as she can feel her ulcer returning with the stress!!!)

Lindsay,
I don't think it is meant to be a hard smack, just a sort of attention-grabbing-bit-harder-than-a-pat kind of smack . Thats the way I took it, and it does seem to work for me. There is no way Ollie would ever get too scared to disobey, he is too thick skinned, but I expect it does depend on the dogs disposition (?).
Regards Nicky

HI Nicki

I wasn't thinking so much of Ollie, (well, i was a bit) as of all the lurkers who will read the advice and start to follow it.

We all train differently, and i understand why you feel this works for you - but I feel so so sad when i see this type of advice. If I had done this with my dog, she would either have become hand shy, would race off whenever i went near her, or would start to become aggressive.

Ollie's your dog, and if you feel fine about it then of course that's up to you....but don't forget to listen to that tiny, tiny voice hidden deep inside which is whispering to you that just maybe it's not the way to go.

You are also bound to have times when Ollie becomes a real teenager and what will you do then, as there is nothing left but to smack harder.

Ah well.....good luck anyway! NO offence meant, I care too much not to be honest

Best wishes
Lindsay

Hello Maisy-Moo (like your name),

I am so pleased for you and your dog - Well Done, (and thank you also for your very kind comments).

How to progress? Now that's an open ended question! This obviously depends on what the Owner and dog already know and what they are currently learning.

Always remember never to correct a dog for something that you have not helped him to fully understand in the first place - Guide and Praise.

Let us look at 'calling your dog' then. (As at least I know this is obviously an area you are currently working on). Do not sit back and tell yourself you have 'cracked it', keep the dog 'on his toes', by always making it clear that Come means Come immediately. So practice indoors and garden, while he is busy, playing or dozing! You can have a 'tag game' with him, i.e. while he is minding his own business in the garden, you creep up, say his name and "COME" at the same time give his rump a firm tap, then dash away. He will quickly turn and chase you, turn towards him and repeat "COME, what a clever lad" and have a little play.

Call him to YOU when getting ready for a walk, don't simply go to him. Make sure he learns at least once a day to come to you while in the same room as you. - (Folk very rarely bother to call a dog to them when just a few feet away in the same room, because they feel there is no need! - but there is EVERY NEED the dog is learning to respond and act on COME no matter where and how far.

Next, some eye contact: When your dog is sitting nicely next to you, waiting for you to take his lead off to run in the Park/Woods etc., do not immediately do so, just stand next to him without saying a word (unless of course you just have to remind him to "Sit"), he should quite quickly look up at you to see what the hold up is! - (afterall he is expecting his lead off and some play). The very moment he looks at you, and makes that eye contact, you say "WATCH, good lad", and then remove his lead and let him go play.

After a while, he will learn that before he is allowed to go play, he must make eye contact with you first. This is not only a good control exercise anyway, but it makes him consider the 'Boss' first (for permission) even when his mind is on rushing off to play! (and the watch command can also be used to your advantage at a later stage too).

The most important areas of training though are what you do at home and garden. Help your dog to learn to listen to you, get him to respond to what you want, guide him to have good manners. Do not allow him to ignore you, or get away with something he shouldn't. Never make excuses for bad behaviour or accept 'that will have to do' etc. By the way I NEVER IGNORE, BANISH or NAG a dog. Do not keep REPEATING a command either, (you will simply be TEACHING him to ignore you, or even to respond on the third or fourth command)!! Therefore, make sure your dog understands what is required, give the command and praise, if he does not respond, make sure you are able to enforce firmly but fairly, and then praise.

If you say "NO" to stop him from doing something (say it like you mean it, short and sharp), when the dog responds accordingly, do not just be satisfied that he has, LET HIM KNOW you are pleased - "There's a good lad". He is learning authority, but equally you are showing your pleasure and approval of his correct responses. You will also be developing a bond between you - team work (no 'middle man' to distract, just you and your dog - I don't even play with a toy - I play with the DOG - the interaction is me and him/her)!

Maisy, are you teaching or have you taught the command to "Wait" yet? If so, I will give you advice on how to teach your dog to stop on command when off lead and ahead of you.

I know your dog is six months old, do you still have him on your lap for a cuddle? If so, does he at some point begin to struggle to get down and do something else, and you then put him back on the floor?

Does your boy lie down on command, and not get up until told to?

With all good wishes and happy training to you both,
Denise.

HI

I was concerned to read that an APDT memvber used violence.....this is not on! Can you tell us more about it, and would you be prepared to complain to the APDT about this member?

Please don't feel a failure with your dog. You are doing your best

Best wishes
Lindsay

Lindsay,
Thanks for that.....
I Left a course of about 10 weeks prepaid, after about the fourth week because I didnt agree with the trainers methods. It was one dog in particular (who was very dominant) who she was physical with. She was trying to get him to lie down, and he wouldnt so she pulled his legs from underneath him so hard that he banged his head on the floor and bit his tongue..He also walked very badly on the lead so he was forever being yanked here there and everwere.
Its 2.5 years since I was there, and I can't even remember her name...so it wouldnt be possible to complain...
I know its not right, but I would hope that people would do what I did and just not go back...
regards......Woody

HI Thanks for the reply Woody.

I too am disgusted. Poor dog, and well done you for having the courage to leave! I wonder if this person is still practising. Do you know the area?

I like to recommend APDT as generally the trainers are great and use similar methods to mine, but like all organisations it is not perfect. Obviously an assessor fell down somewhere or the trainer was good at pretending, when applying for membership. Afriend of mine is an assessor for them in some areas, and she will be spitting mad when i tell her

Best wishes
Lindsay

HI there,

I was very interested in your post and i believe i might know what happened. When owners initiate a pack ranking system (which I refer to as RRP - rank reduction programme) what occasionally happens is that the dog in question becomes depressed, as he/she is in a sense interpreting what is happening as a random punishment. Let me explain!

The early lessons in life for a dog teach them that it is all about being able to corectly interpret signals from pack members and others. They learn this as tiny pups with their mothers and littermates, and so it carries on.....and they learn to work towards obtaining signals which precede a reward (not a reward necessarily in our sense).

A typical RRP may mean withdrawal of privileges, such as no sitting on bed/sofa, wait for meals, dog not allowed in certian areas, etc. Some dogs respond well as they start to have a well understood structure in their life.

Others see the withdrawal of these "rewards" as a punishment. This may happen especially with big dogs who are more affected than small.

For instance, a dog who has learnt the normal signals for food time, may see various environmental cues, such as owner going into kitchen , and probably many other very subtle ones. The dogs expectations are built up..... dinner is on the way! Great!

Then confusion abounds as the dog sees the owners eating first, and this cue is usually seen after he has eaten his own meal. In a sensitive dog this can raise the state of conflict, and especially if the dog's food is prepared and then left until later, thus raising expectations and then denying them.

Many dogs are not affected at all and just carry on, but there are the odd few who do become low, and supress their own responses as a reaction. It isn't a sulk, it is a genuine reaction from a confused dog.

John Fisher, who before he died changed his views on RRP, said it was well documented in his view that when owners relaxed the rules, they got their dog back as normal.

Just for the record, I have always flouted pack ranking rules because my own view is that true canine dominance is related to mating. I believe a lot of so-called dominance is due to dogs simply being opportunistic. Like teenagers maybe. Pushing to see how far they can go. But to my mind it isn't dominance.

I suspect your RRP did make Ollie down, as you said, and when you relaxced the rules he relaxed again too.

He he he....my dogs eat before me, might go through a door before me, sleep on beds and sofas, and all the other naughty things <g>, but they are superb to live with and be with. My bitch Banya is learning Working Trials so we aren't doing too badly inspite of it!!!

Good luck with Ollie
LIndsay

Thanks Lindsay,
The only reason why I started a RRP was because he started being snappy at strange dogs. He isnt the same with every strange dog/bitch only the occasinal few, and only if they approach him, he NEVER approaches them first. I had got it into my head that he was doing it because he thought I wasn't suitable to make a decision (if you see what I mean).
I then did the following;
Put a gate accross the stairs.
Stopped tug games.
Started feeding after me.
NILFF.
Started to ignore him after re-uniting. (very hard because he is always really waggy)
Put all toys away and only played when I wanted to.
The only thing I relaxed was the ignoring on re-uniting, and letting him upstairs if I am up, but not in the bedrooms.
He just seems a happier dog with 5 times as much energy as he had before ????
I am putting the advice from Denise into practice regarding recalls and will still do the obedience every day, maybe I can crack it that way,
I havn't got a really naughty disobedient dog, just one who suffers from selective hearing and a dislike of SOME strange dogs (pretty normal really) but I would like to improve his obedience. :D :D
Good luck with the Working Trials

Regards Woody.....soon to be M.P.

HI NIcki

Relaxing the ignoring on reuniting would, IMHO, be enough to cheer your dog up and negate much of the RRP.

I dooubt if you will find the RRP will help for snapping at strange dogs, did you socialise him with friendly dogs at a pup class when he was a young pup? Many people dont and their dogs find it hard to cope with other dogs.

Is his snapping reasonable (ie does he snap when other dogs really bother him?) or does he attack? Does he bite or just snap? Do you feel he is scared, as this is quite likely? NOt all dogs get on with others, just like us - but if it is a problem and he is snapping too much then the best thing to do is to be relaxed and nonchalant about other dogs yourself, and reward him with your chosen method (lots of praise, or a treat, or a game) when he walks past at a reasonable distance .....it will take time and depending on the dog may not be suitable, and also if he gets worse you may need help from a trainenr who understands why he is doing what he is doing, and can offer rehab support . I may be able to supply you with contacts depending on where you live.

You're working really hard so I wish you lots of luck, and remember - it all takes time

LIndsay

Lindsay,
Ollie was very well socialised as a pup, both in a training classes and out and about. The snapping only really started at about 2 years old...he is 3 in september. Sometimes I think his snapping is justified when dogs really bother him, but other times it seems to be when they just come for a sniff. Today for example a bitch he has only met a couple of times came bounding over and he started to play, then she started to sniff his behind and then his face, and he snapped at her. A few seconds later he was playing with her again !!???. Another time he snapped at a rottie who just stood there looking at him as if he was a loony.

Its as though he is snapping at the shoulder area making lots of noise and trying to chase them away at the same time (never made any contact though). As I've said before though he does not approach them, although when he sees another dog his tail is always straight up and he sometimes stands still until they have gone past.
For the past couple of weeks I have relaxed instead of worrying and calling him over, and just carried on walking, ignoring him and rewarding him for good behaviour and this seems to be working (apart from small incident today).

Ollie has a couple of 'special friends' who he will play with all the time, lots of other 'occasional friends' and others that he will walk with but don't really play much.

Obviously if he gets worse it is time to seek help, but for the moment I will keep trying and see what happens..

Regards
Nicky

HI Nicky

From your description it doesn't sound too bad, anyway good luck with him

LIndsay