Hello! I'm new : )

I'd be really glad of some advice from Golden experts! : )

I have a three month old bitch ... who is beautiful. : )

We have lots of previous experience with GSDs (father a Police Dog Handler), but these methods are obviously different from dealing with a 3 month old golden!

Our Golden Puppy is very confident, already clean, did not make any noise the first night we had her etc. etc. Unfortunately she loves to bite us! This is not acceptable, even though we realise that she is teething. We have tried putting her on her back and saying "NO" firmly until she stops struggling, but she comes back for more, especially when looking straight at her (confrontational) gets aggressive - but still wagging tail - I think she is playing! If she persists, which she always does, we remove her from "the pack" al la Jan Fennell. We are consistant. We have tried distraction techniques, but she is a very persistant pup! When we exclude her, it is more often than not into the garden. Is this the equivilent of sending a 10 year old child to its room, which is fully equiped with Playstation etc?

Otherwise, a beautiful little pup, walks on the lead beautifully, confident with waggy tail. Happy meeting strangers and their dogs. Unfortunately she drew blood from my mother this evening, and we are very, very, worried. Breeder is very responsible and very, very, supportive, but would be glad of other opinions : ) No history of aggression with either Dam or Sire's lines. We really, really, do not want to physically check her!

Any advice most gratefully received.

Why not? She has no qualms for biting you. How long do you want to drag this out? Perhaps until all the family have sore hands and arms, or are you waiting until she is much older, when it will be even more difficult to correct!

Let us imagine that you touch something you shouldn't, let's say a priceless ornament, as you touch it, your 'Mum' distracts you with a toy, or she takes you out in the garden. Are you honestly going to make the connection as to why she did this? Of course you won't, next time the opportunity occurs you will touch the ornament again.

Now let us suppose that you touch the ornament - and it is HOT! - heck that was not pleasant as you leap back. You may go away and think about it, and try once more (just in case), sure enough yes it is HOT, and heck it was unpleasant to touch again. Are you going to repeat the action???? - Now you and your 'Mum' can get on with other things together, and the issue of not touching the ornament has been sorted, no lengthy process or constant nagging involved.

Regards,
Denise.

Hi,
Well I wouldn't call myself a Golden expert but I do have a 5 month pup and have recently been through the biting stage.

At first I did the "yelping" when she bit me and this surprised her and made her back off for a while and then I would give her a chew toy. If she persisted and came back again at us we then moved onto grasping her muzzle when she did it and telling her NO in a stern voice. This seemed to have done the trick along with CONSISTENCY - tell her NO every time !!
We went through a stage though when she was about the same age as yours when she became possessive of rask bones or sticks she'd found and she would clamp her mouth tight around the object and give a warning snarl.
The thing that sorted it though was as you would say "physically checking her". ON these occasions I grabbed her scruff, pushed her to the floor, slapped her backside and in a LOUD & GRUFF VOICE said " NO -what do you think you're doing, BAD GIRL". After allowing her back up (after say 10 seconds) we carried on as normal with her.This happened about 3 times with me and a couple with my husband and now both of us can take anything from her when ever WE want.
She would not dream of biting us now although she play bites alot with our two year old golden who is happy to let her but if she gets out of hand with him he reacts in a very similar way to what we did - a yelp first and if she persists he scruffs her and pins her down for a few seconds.

They have to respect you and you must sort this while they are little. It is alot easier to deal with a small mouth than a big one She is happy knowing the boundrys and still loves me despite me using this method a few times on her - she doesn't hold grudges. Her Mother would have done the same to her and as I say my other dog uses these actions when he has had enough.

She sounds a wonderful little girl and perfectly normal for a 3 months golden but she must learn what is acceptable and a few short sharp lessons will (in my opinion) be much better than pussy footing around :D

Sara

Welcome to the forum UKPhoenix

Just out of curiosity, what does your father recommend?

Hiya again! : ) Many thanks for the advice.

My breeder recommends pushing her over onto her back (which my Golden Puppy thinks is a game). The breeder also suggested covering her muzzle and pushing her gums against her teeth + "NO!". Tried the latter, and she just became more over the top. Did this on/off for about 30 minutes ... didn't get the message.

Spoke to Dad on the 'phone. He said don't do the above will make her head shy/will always react negatively to outstretched hands. Obviously can't have this with Police Dogs which come into contact with the public on a daily basis. He also said smacking no good at this age ... she is a baby, and needs to learn the ropes using other methods. He basically said not to offer hands or fingers, which like a human baby, she will instantly put in her mouth, and then bite as she is teething. Dad says that this is her way of showing her love believe it or not, like dam in the wild regurgitating (sorry terrible spelling!) the food for the pup. Recommends if we have to reach down with hands, as soon as she opens mouth to bite shout "NO!" in the usual way. If persists, change the situation, i.e. walk away. If still persists use "NO!" again, exclude etc. Dad basically says that this is all play, and that she is not being agressive, that accidents will happen as puppies have needle sharp teeth. Do not put in a confrontational situation. As a very last resort, pick up put the scruff either side neck and lift off the floor, shaking (extremely gently) with "NO!". He says that this disorientates them and makes them feel v. sheepish. Which I can atest to having seem him do this with grown GSD (albeit a with a little more force). Dad said that he would actually need to see my Golden before making any other judgement and methods. He did say on no account smack her on her nose, as she breaths through it, and it has about a gazillion vital bits in it which may be damaged ... and again will make her headshy.

The Vet also said to ignore the behaviour and use distraction.

I'd really appreciate your feedback on this. What do you think? Many thanks for the posts so far! : )

P.S. I've decided prob not to have children, if there are this many opinions on puppy rearing, imagine how many ways to bring up children! ; ) ; ) ; )

lol -know what you mean about Children and that's why I don't have any :D

I understand where your Dad is coming from about the muzzle holding and possibly making her headshy but to be honest we didn't have to do this many times before Phoebie caught on. I also spend quite a bit of time "nicely" touching my dogs faces and looking at teeth etc to get them used to it as it help at the vets and in Phoe's case when being examined by a judge.

I have never tried this "alpha roll" thing that I have seen mentioned a few times on this board. I found that the action of grabbing her scruff and the stern words made sure she knew this wasn't a game. In ways it is similar to what your dad has said about holding the cheeks etc but not as extreme although if a grown dog challenged me (and I had the guts) I'd do it.

Goldens have a love of having something in their mouths and if your hand is available will make use of that. I have not taught my dogs never to mouth my hands although I know some people do. As the pup is still at the learning stage I do not encourage mouth to hand contact but the two year old will lead me (gently) by the hand and will greet me this way. This is fine as he knows how much pressure he can use and never hurts me. It can however give the dog mixed messages about biting though which is why the pup is not allowed to do it. The 2 yr old knows the meaning of gentle and it works for us although I can understand why this would be frowned on by some.

I agree with what your dad says about it being play BUT she has to learn that it hurts you. It does get better when the needle teeth have gone but she'll have stopped by then

I found the bit interesting when you said that the muzzle holding made her more over the top and she didn't get the message. The fact you had to do it for such a length of time suggests to me she knew you didn't really mean it although you do say you said NO! which comes across as stern in the post. Dogs pick up on very subtle signs we don't realise we are giving at times.

Have you tried the over the top yelp yourself and then short ignore when she bites ? This is how her litter mates would react if she hurt them and at times from the noise you'd expect one had been half killed. I used to feel really silly doing it but I do feel it helped us to get over the biting phase. May be coincidence and it was really the other things that stopped her but put it this way - it didn't do us any harm using it along with the other stuff :D

The point about offering her your hands and fingers that your dad said about is true. Of course she'll get hold of them - anything she wants to investigate as a pup goes in her mouth including all sorts of disgusting horrible things Offer her a rag bone to chew on or a nylabone.

She won't take long to learn providing you do everything with conviction and consistency. She MUST know you mean it though. If there is any doubt in her mind that she can get away with it she will.

Good Luck,
Sara

I would definitely avoid hitting young dogs on the nose. i would avoid hitting any dogs on the nose.

The owner of my Lab whippet cross used to do this before we got her, and she died eventualy of cancer of the nose.

This area is very sensitive and cells once damaged are in all probability lying dormant until old age and then activated when the dogs immune system starts to fail.

I haven't been on here for ages, and am sad to come back and read many messages offering harsh solutions to pups biting. Why oh why do people feel this is necessary???
My BSD bitch is now 13 months and was a heck of a little biter.....now an adult, she is gentleand sweet natured and doesn't bite.

I didn't hit her (sorry but to my mind this is physical abuse). I didn't shout or react roughly. I treated her as a puppy who was learning and used similar methods to those in "The Perfect Puppy" by gwen Bailey.

Patience is one of the best training tools. It does all take time.

Is there no one but me now to offer alternative advice? I give up!!!!

Lindsay

>>>>> Is there no one but me now to offer alternative advice? I give up!!!!

Hello Lindsay - what is your advice ? It may be a good idea to post it so UKPhoenix has another angle to approach it from

By the way I haven't noticed anyone condoning hitting a pup on its nose in the responses - it was just some advice the posters Dad gave her ie : NOT to do it.

Sara

P.S. My 2 year old is .....now an adult, he is gentle and sweet natured and doesn't bite ..... despite my methods

HI Sara,

I did used to post on here a lot with motivational and reward based advice - but just gave up after a while. I basically lost heart. And i worried far too much about some of the things that I read on here.

I have been looking back over older postings and there are people who give advice who recommend a firm whack on the muzzle.....they just haven't said it on this particular thread!This was to the worried owner of a 12 or 14 week GSD pup.

I really worry too that there are still those on here who have recommended e collars in the past.

If UK Phoenix would like help, and support, I will gladly give it, but please could they mail me privately? I just feel emotionally exhausted even by coming back here so may not visit for another 6 months or so !!

Best wishes
Lindsay

Hi Lindsay

It is nice when there are posts that give 2 views on how to deal with things - I use a combination of things myself but I am always open to ideas as are most on here

I think the general feeling on e collars was one of disgust and caused alot of uproar at the time.

It would be nice if you continued to post your views but if it is stressful and you feel you are banging your head against a brick wall I understand your decision to possibly not post.

Regards, Sara

Lindsay I respect your methods but at the same time don't use your methods.
I never beat my dogs but they do get a tap on the nose or scruffed by the neck should I feel they need it
When my Lab went for my Border Collie over a toy I would not have had time to fetch a treat and say have this instead for all I know they could have ended up in a full blown fight why I was getting treat.
What I did was got my Lab by the neck scruffed her and told her no very firmly and she hasn't gone for BC since.

Karen

Lindsay, just to say, I was wondering where you were. Nice to see you back. Please stay!
LynnT

Thanks very much Lynn; I have missed Champdogs but I get too involved.....I have to take care of myself a bit, too, you know?

Best wishes to you and yours

LIndsay

Hi Lindsay. Lovely to see you here again.

The two comments I will make about a smack on the nose.

1/ The puppy cannot fail to see what is causing the pain, stinging sensation, call it what you will, and the one thing he will have learned is that hands cause pain! Therefore, if you see hands coming you better do something about it quick before the pain starts!

2/ The nose contains the Jacobson's Organ which is the "Scent Organ" and a sharp rap on the nose can damage the sense of smell.

In any form of physical correction which inflicts pain in any way, the first essential is that the dog does not see what inflicts that pain or you could get into a situation where the dog is going to answer back in the only way it can!

Regards John

HI John

Thanks, i am here due to your e-mail in fact, which I will reply to in a minute. I can update you on Banya!

I agree with your comments about the nose; to my mind the dog or pup will just learn to retaliate if it sees a hand coming towards it, and anyone who suggests hitting with a hand is in my view giving extremely bad training advice. It depends on the pup's personality and genetic make up as to what the final outcome will be.

In my view it is best if hands are seen as good things. i am always mindful of the rescue BC who was hit with a paper (not quite the same thing but similar) and when out for a walk with its new owner, attacked an innocent passer by who had a newspaper!!

We have a duty to everyone to keep our dogs safe.

Sadly lots of people will have seen advice about hitting pups/dogs on their muzzle and will now probably be at home doing it, and thinking it is working The true consequences may not occur until well into the future.

BEst wishes to you John
LIndsay

Hi Lindsey,

I couldn't agree with you more and I am extremely sorry to hear about the sad loss of your own dog. We have never hit Honey on her nose, or any other part of her body. I was simply passing on what my father had advised me. I am also very keen to practise a non-physical method of checking Honey. I read "The Dog Whisperer" by Jan Fennel about 6 months before even buying Honey, because we as a family were so keen to "get it right". However, at this point Honey is too young to respond to this extremely well ... she is a baby.

As I have already mentioned, training for a Police GSD is and should be different from that of a 3 month old Golden, partley due to the breed, and obviously the age. My father said that "physically checking" his dogs was a last resort, and that a responsible owner should change the situation for the dog, so that it does not become a confrontation. All our GSD were excellent working dogs, and family pets. When Dad was training his last dog and went on a job, Max ran after the suspect into the bushes and started to lick him. Dad found him because the suspect was laughing so much! : )

I would gratefully welcome any practical suggestions for preventing biting ... as would my fingers, arms and backs of knees! ; )

Warm regards,

UKPhoenix : )

HI there UK Phoenix

I picked up on something, where you said the pup had drawn blood and you were very worried. First of all, pups do bite and nip and most if not all do learn to stop; it's not often anyone sees a 4 year old dog doing this unless the owner has played wrestling games. So, try to relax a bit if you can. It may take just a little while. If on the other hand you think the pup is aggressive then it is a different story but i don't get the impression this is the case with your pup at all!!!

In fact Honey sounds marvellous!

I see you are in the South West - not Dorset by any chance? I could always visit if you are close by and help a bit.

Your dad sounds lovely and i like his idea of changing the situation for the dog so as to avoid confrontation Sound thinking that man!

If I can help at all - I can tell you how i trained my girl to stop if it won't bore you <g> do mail me. If you click on my name my addy comes up.

Best wishes
Lindsay

Sarah,

Thank you sooooo much for your feedback! It's nice to hear that there are other worried "parents" ; ) out there too. I don't think that we've been saying "NO!" forcefully enough! : ) We have tried it today v. harsh voice, worked a treat! : ) Hopefully this and other methods used consistantly will work. Roll on a full set of teeth then! ; )

We discovered fairly early on that Honey has a disgusting habit our scoffing our local garden variety escargots! Although in all fairness, she did want to share with us! Ick!!!! : )

It's great to know that other people post to this board who have recently been "through it" and the ways in which they have dealt with the problem. Thanks again! Give Phoebie a pat from us! : )

UKPhoenix

"There once was a Golden with a curl,
right in the middle of her forehead,
When she was nice, she was very, very nice ...
... but when she was mean she was horrid!"

UK Phoenix - thanks for the post.

We all have different ways of doing things and hopefully Lindsay will post her solution soon so you have another opinion to look at decide what is best for you.

I am one of the softest owners about and after the scruffing episode over possessivness I spoke to some of my doggy friends with years of experience between them as I was worried I shouldn't have reacted how I did - the general consensus was however that a short sharp shock (NOT painful) was the best way to deal with it. I could have spent ages offering her something better to chew etc but in my mind this was bribery and as much as I love my two I did not want to get into a position where they only did as I said if I offered them something more rewarding in their eyes.

I don't condone beating of animals but treating them how their Mum would is fine in my book

You'll get it cracked soon - it's amazing how powerful and good a deterrent a voice can be :D

We're a couple of months ahead of you in age and the other posters have dogs of all ages so as things come up post away as you can bet one of us has just been there :D

Enjoy Honey - they grow so fast and if it's a consolation Phoebie at 20 weeks has now got her adult teeth (small still but adult and not so sharp :D)

Sara

Thanks Sara! ; )

Sooooo cute! : ) Do you have a picture? Can you post pictures to this board? How do you insert smileys and things? : )

Honey is just starting to walk more like a "big girl" than a pup! So sweete when she goes between the two! Sort of like a boy's voice breaking!

UKPhoenix

if you click on help at the top of your screen it will show you how to do the faces :D

There is not anywhere to post pics on here but if you click on a posters name you can find additional information about them and sometimes links to a website with pictures

If you click on my name you'll find my email address and I'd love to see Honey so please send a pic or two :D

Sarah,

Thanks! :D Ha Ha I too have joined the forum proper!

Looked at your pics, beautiful dogs

Woody was a beauty wasn't he. We lost Max to the dreaded C at about the same age.

Will post some pics on my site, as soon as they are developed. We've never taken so many pics.

UKPhoenix

Hiya Leigh!

Thank you for the kind welcome! : ) I'm still getting the hang of this posting thing, but I did reply to you in a post below. I'd be very glad of your feedback.

Warm regards,

UKPhoenix

My feedback is very simple your father is a Police Dog Handler and yet you are asking for 'advice' on a public message board You have readily available access to some of the best advice you are ever going to get 'on tap' .... I would be using it Enjoy your pup.

Always open to other views!

When my Labrador puppy started biting me, I just let her. It hurt a bit for a while. I think it puzzled her that I was not worried. She tried biting herself (I think to see how much pain she could inflict.) It stopped fairly soon. I think biting is fairly natural for puppies. I think the mother dog would stop it with a "snap" near the puppy.

Michael
25 June 2002

Thanks for the reply Michael,

Honey has taking to biting her rear legs as it goes? Any other ideas why she is doing this?

UK Phoenix

Does her anal gland need emptying? It can make them very irritated around their back end.
LynnT

Hi,
I too have a golden retriever pup "SAL", she will be six months old next week....
SAL also went through this stage of biting us.....
We just grabbed her muzzle tightish and shouted "NO"
I cant even remember the last time she bit us now????
I have a 2 year old daughter and a 6 six year old daughter and she has never bitten them.
We also taught her "GENTLE" (you know , the one where they have to take the treat out of your hand without snapping or even touching your skin,,). you could try this.....
BUT don't worry she will stop

I'm not a great expert. But my guess is biting the rear legs is a form of grooming. She may itch. (Hopefully, she does not have fleas.)

Michael
25 June 2002